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Problems with wrens on the bluebird trail (Part 1)In addition to Messages that have appeared in the Bluebird Mailing Lists on this topic, the following are on the Audubon Society of Omaha website:
Subj: Re: bluebird: House WRENS & shrubs/trees Hi Haleya, et al Subj: KEEP Wrens OUT!
From: anthony hil Subj: Re: disrupted
nest; whodunit ideas? Dean Sheldon, Huron County, OH/CNBN
Advisory Board Subj: wrens and baby bluebirds Twice we have had a female
tree swallow killed during the brooding period, and after
two or three days, the wrens removed the eggs (the male swallow
having left). This year, only 5 of 21 wren eggs were fertile
- eventually the female stopped sitting on these eggs, and
2-3 days later other wrens removed them from the box. I
have also seen wrens remove 2-to-5-day-old dead young from
their own nest, so suppose they might also remove dead young
from other species if the box was not being defended. As
long as our wrens have a box or two near brushy cover, they
are not too big a problem at bluebird boxes out in the open.
Maybe we have just been lucky so far. Subj: HOWR idea But, here's my latest thinking.
If HOWR don't show up till the end of the first nesting
(at least in the North East) - what if those with terrible
HOWR problems - but still wanted to have boxes in their
back yards - did just one nesting a season and then took
the box down. This might be totally nuts, but I remember
Hatch telling us about a woman down there with plenty of
boxes who only let her BBs nest once .... Subj: HOWR Problems Subj:
Re: HOWR Problems Generally
you get one Bluebird nesting going before House Wrens arrive.
That is in your area of Ohio. The feathers from a bluebird found
in the wren nest are most likely from a young bluebird that died
out side the box. Think about moving some of your boxes into more
open places and mounted on iron pipe. Former Ohioan Joe Huber
Venice Fl. Subj: House Wrens?Prison. Subj: House Wrens Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:05:36 -0700 ...I know from experience how destructive house sparrows can be to other birds. (And by the way, my trap is not working at all--but my marksmanship is improving!) But what about house wrens? The bluebird boxes will be far enough away that I don't think the wrens will bother them. But do wrens attack other birds--and is that only cavity nesting birds or also those who build nests in trees? We had a pair of house wrens nest here last year, but they only bothered the house sparrows, so that was fine. But I'm wondering if they will bother oriole, kingbird, and goldfinch nests? ... Linda Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 18:08:59 -0500 Linda, We've had problems with house wrens. They destroyed 3 nests of bluebird eggs last summer alone and who knows how many other species' eggs were damaged. I don't encourage them. I don't even like them anymore. Patty Haught, WV Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:26:41 -0400 I hope that posters are clear that House Wrens (HOWR) can also be the bbs nemesis. I've had bb eggs destroyed by those little "cute" wrens - and entire nestings put to an end from them. So, if we are going to make the hole smaller than a HOSP can get into, perhaps we should think about making the hole also smaller than a HOWR can get into, or have no bottom in the box... IMHO The idea of no bottoms in the boxes is a real good one. RE: cutsie bird houses ("Wright, Merlin C." , 6:59 PM) To: "'bdarnell"at"centurytel.net'" bdarnell"at"centurytel.net, RWil2654"at"aol.com, dputman"at"syix.com, BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu Is the one inch hole the right size for wrens? Merlin Wright at Brownville Nebraska Bill Darnell Very good. Also, as a crafts item, they are pretty popular as an inside decoration. If everyone who builds them would just put a 1 inch or less hole in them! Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:38:13 -0500 .... House Wrens are a real problem for us here; we have droves of them. The only way we can reduce (and even sometimes eliminate) House Wren competition is to keep our houses well out in some sort of clearing. House Wrens love thickets, bushes, brambles, shrubbery, overgrown tree lines, etc., and the closer your Bluebird houses are to this kind of cover, the greater the risk of the wrens taking over. They have a beautiful song, and they're pretty perky little birds, but they are aggressive, they'll peck and destroy other birds' eggs and babies, and they'll stuff houses full of sticks so that nothing else can use them. Some Listers have spoken of an urge to shoot them, and I can sympathize, but you'd probably better not. They're as fully protected by law as any other native songbird. Most books suggest that you keep your Bluebird houses at least 100' out in the open, where the Bluebirds are happy and the House Wrens aren't. The only other wren we have here is the Winter Wren, and they don't nest in cavities so they are nothing but a delight to have around. Their song seems to me to be the most beautiful in all birddom. (Is that a word?) And they're tiny, - smaller than a House Wren, - not all that much bigger than a Hummingbird. How that little bird makes that lovely and unbelievably LONG sound is a mystery. Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 08:41:56 -0600 .... These are my opinions: The Milo that we plant for livestock feed is too large for small birds. Grouse, pheasants and turkeys can eat it. Millet is smaller and is enjoyed by small birds but not as much as black oil sunflower seeds. Incidentally house sparrows do not like sunflower seeds as much as they do millet and corn(crushed). Yes, house wrens will attack other birds nesting within up to 1/4 mile of their nest. In research done in the Platte river valley near Grand Island about 5 years ago, the graduate student was studying all nesting birds. He had identified about 60 nest sites in an area about 1/2 miles square and when he returned a week later, only two survived-a house wren and a red-winged blackbird. The other nests had the eggs removed with a hole pecked in the eggs. This is indicative of a house wren attack. Well, his research was not on how many various babies fledged but on the destruction of one house wren. Interesting. Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:11:17 -0800 ... Regarding the use of nestboxes by HOuse WRens: I was always under the assumption that HOWRs only used nestboxes if they were located within a few feet of brush and other cover. I personally have had no problem with them, except for the first box I put up. But it was my fault; I put it in the wrong place. After moving it to a more suitable location, I haven't had any HOWRs at all. So my question: Will HOuse WRens use nestboxes that are placed well away from brush and other cover? If they won't, then it should be pretty simple to simply move the box. Would appreciate your replies. wg wendyg"at"jps.net Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:49:39 -0400 I have a nest box that is at least 200' from brush and those "at"%&^*&$HOWR have still managed to get one clutch of eggs a season. I am pairing that box this year, which should help. Even though there are HOSP around, I've never had trouble with them like I have with HOWR. H Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:43:31 -0500 Wendy, this is typically so, but not guaranteed, as Haleya has pointed out. I've also found that wrens don't fill *every* box in their territory with twigs. And they don't bother *every* nearby species. I had Tree Swallows in a box that was 36' from House Wrens last year with no problems; they both fledged.
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:56:42 -0800 ...I have been maintaining Western Bluebird boxes and banding chicks for a number of years. My general impression is that one gets House Wrens because of the placement of the boxes. House Wrens (at least in the southwest) seem to use nest boxes adjacent to riparian and heavily vegetated areas. To avoid House Wrens, simply move the box and place it in a more open, typical habitat of bluebirds. For those who are concerned with House Wrens, be aware that they are native birds as well. To actively snuff out House Wrens and destroy their nesting is probably illegal. House Sparrows and Starlings are two birds that do not have such protection. And last, in the BIRDBAND-L, we try to be courteous to the novices who do not know alpha codes. If you want to use alpha codes, at least define them the first time you use them. As a bander, we "speak" in alpha codes, but even then I only know codes for the birds I band or see while birdwatching. I could only guess for codes for eastern birds. Walt Walter H. Sakai Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 17:51:18 -0800 How right you are. House Wrens are protected by The Migratory Bird Act, no matter how destructive they might be in some places. Wendy Guglieri Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 20:15:33 -0800 Linda Violett - Yorba Linda, Calif. Wendy, if I had to keep my boxes well out of shrubs & trees, I wouldn't have a bluebird trail and 211 bluebirds would not have fledged last year. My trail is squeezed into walking-path parks and greenbelts. All along these narrow pathways are residential backyards, shrubs, wrens and sparrows. Moving a box away from shrubs & house wrens is not usually an option so I keep pulling out house wren twigs before the nest cups are built and will continue to experiment toward a wren-resistant box. Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 23:16:51
-0600 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:36:27 -0500 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:59:11 -0800 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:24:56 -0600 Greetings all, I hear a lot about the evils of the HOuse SParrow...but the one that I hate even more is the House Wren. (That may be related to the fact that the wren is protected and the HOSP is not...at least I feel like I can do something about the HOSPs!) These recent posts about the wrens makes my blood run cold. My Eastern Bluebirds can fight off the HOSP, and last year the BB and HOSP coexisted after their initial skirmishes. (I don't mind having the HOSP expend its energy building a nest, laying eggs and beginning the incubation process. Unfortunately for them, their efforts never come to fruition, due to a little intervention on my part.) Last year, the BBs and HOSPs fought and each ended up with a nestbox. The BBs built their nest, laid eggs and incubated. At 9:00 a.m. on Day 11 of incubation, the female BB ate mealworms. At 9:30 I discovered all four eggs on the ground under the house...with two little poke marks. The House Wrens had arrived unannounced and had surreptitiously gone about their evil work before the BBs were even alerted to the new threat. At about 11:00, I saw the male BB looking in his house and I thought he exchanged food with the female because I saw his beak meet another. But then, the beaks seemed to be fighting...and all of a sudden the male BB pulled the wren out by its beak! The wren flew off. But about 20 minutes later, it flew into the HOSP's house. I watched. It threw out a feather, and then the egg. (There was only one egg left, due to intervention.) It pierced the egg with its beak, just like a shiskabob (sp?), and flicked it out of the box. The good news is...that was the second batch of eggs that the HOSP had lost, and it left for the summer! The good news is...a BB pair came (back?) and nested in the former HOSP house. She brought four babies to independence. The bad news is...one wren family fledged three. The good news is...that one wren drove off two other wren families and shiskabobbed at least seven eggs in one of the other wren nests. And that's my story... Molly PS An EABL couple has seriously been checking out a house. They seem to be winning the fights with the HOSP. I'm not seeing a female HOSP, so I think maybe the guy is fighting a losing battle (I hope). -----Original Messages----- From: Patricia Haught .... Most of my boxes get selected by bluebirds for one brood. Then the House Wren returns and the competition starts. I've read that the bluebirds are on the scene earlier prior to the return of the house wrens. Is that similar to what everyone has observed? Like Paul, I've seen our bluebirds behave aggressively when there is a need. Patty in WV ... Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:10:52 -0600 Bill Darnell, Savannah, TN Molly: I have thought the same, the BB's were winning! If the HOSP ever pins one of your BB's in the house, you will find a deadly outcome. The blue is no match for this cold blooded killer inside the box. At least the wren does not kill the BB. Bill Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:35:58 -0600 I know, Bill...but at least something can be done about the HOuse SParrow! And, you're telling me some good news...that House Wrens never kill Bluebirds? See, another good news item! So much good news today...yeeha! Can you tell I'm an optimist? I hope the HOSP selects a box so I can get on with messing with it! But, I despair over the House Wren...as a protected species it can continue on with its ..... behavior. Molly ... Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:22:44 EST **Terrie in NW Ohio - Pt. Sunny - 47* I agree (and sympathize) with both Molly & Bill on the issue of House Wrens(HOWR). It is discouraging when a HOWR wants to set up house in a bluebird house. I have added some smaller houses with smaller openings to entice the HOWR away from the houses claimed by Eastern Bluebirds (EABL). This helped last summer. It's to early to know if it will help this year (HOWR are just now thinking of showing up here again!).I hope I have satisfied all with my names and abbreviations. There has sure been a lot of "ruffled feathers" lately over this! Sorry, but I don't have time to get in on the debate further as I need to go feed my EABL their mealworms! :-) *Terrie in NW Ohio (Mt. Blanchard) 45 miles south of Toledo Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 10:55:20 -0500 I have a house wren clearing out a box where some chickadees were making a nest. I have 2 male house sparrows harrassing all the nest boxes, including the female bluebird's box. I keep shooting at them with no luck (my husband's working all day). Anyone have any advice?? Thanks, Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 21:47:58 -0500 Valerie, It is heartbreaking when something happens to those little eggs. I'm so sorry for you and your neighbor. ... You said the eggs were destroyed and on the ground by the nestbox. Last year, on Day 11 of incubation, I found my EAstern BLuebird's four eggs on the ground in front of the nestbox. The shells were pretty smashed, and the tiny birds inside were dead and bloody. About 20 minutes later, I watched a HOuse WRen go into a HOuse SParrow nestbox. Next thing I see, the HOWR sticks his head out of the box and he has the egg "shiskabobbed" on his beak. He then flicked the HOSP egg onto the ground in front of the box. (List: Why there was only one HOSP egg left in the nest is another story, so no need to address me about it.) From my bird map, it appears that North Carolina has HOuse WRens. Do you and have you heard any of their joyful, cheerful, bubbly (said sarcastically) singing? Also, apart from the smashing they would've taken in dropping to the ground, could you see any small holes (one or two) where the HOWR would have stabbed the egg with his beak? Would it make you feel any better if I told you that after this happened to my EABLs, they continued on to a new nest and fledged four? It is early in the season and there is hope. Molly Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 12:11:01 -0500 All right all you gurus about cavity nesting birds... The EAstern BLuebirds were here since mid-March checking out houses. About two weeks ago their visits became more infrequent, sporadic and for shorter periods of time. I became resigned to (and despondent about) the fact that they had chosen another neighborhood, even though they've nested in our yard for many years. When the HOuse WRen showed up Thursday, I was not real happy...but it appeared that he would be my entertainment for the summer. (Curses to those Blues... and with my apologies to Robins, the Robin nesting in a cedar tree just 20 feet from our front door just is not as exciting as watching Blues.) Anyway, the TRee SWallows (who have always checked out the boxes but passed on them) came on Friday. Today, Sunday, they are working on a nest. (I think my 5- and 10-year-olds are much more impressed with the TRSWs than the EABLs, anyway.) Now I am embarrassed to admit that I haven't been paying too much attention to the postings about TRSWs since I figured I'd never have to know (although I did keep the info about where they go during the cold, etc., and found it very interesting). So, do the HOWRs and TRSWs have the same relationship as the HOWRs and the EABLs? I realize the emphasis here is on TRSW habits, so please post
directly to me if you think it is appropriate. Thanks in advance
for any advice you can Molly Miller Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 17:24:20 -0700 I certainly agree with Dave. Looks like House Wrens. HOSP don't
generally dump eggs, wrens do. Any other predator, snake, jays,
grackles (whatever you have there) wouldn't leave eggshells
nearby. Did you see any twigs (kitchen match size) in the nest?
Is your nestbox near any fairly brushy area? Better luck next
time. ... Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 07:49:24 EDT Dear all, Both the active nests I had, One EAstern BLuebird and one BLack-capped CHicakadee were ravaged yesterday by a HOuse WRen. I know it was the HOWR because I saw him leaving one of the boxes. The EABL pair were around when I witnessed this and the male chased the HOWR. I went first to check their box. There were five eggs originally. Now there is one and there was one egg broken on the ground directly under the hole. The BCCH nest which had seven eggs now has six and one of those has a very small hole in it. Nests were otherwise undisturbed and all the boxes are on poles with stovepipe predator guards. I thought I had heard a HOWR the day before but wasn't sure and thought it was too early. Obviously it is not too early here. This is a very wooded area and it its impossible in my yard to get any boxes even 50' from the tree line or shrubby areas. The one box that was most in the open had remained empty and both the EABL box and the BCCH box were in the edges of the woods. It is now clear that this yard is not a suitable place for nest boxes and I would warn anyone else with a very wooded yard about the HOWR. I assume ?? the best thing for me to do now is to leave the nests and see if the birds continue to incubate the remaining eggs ( though I am worried about the adults since I read that HOWR occassionally kill them) and once it is clear that they are not, or the nesting is over I will remove the boxes. As far as the EABL go the best thing I can do in this area I guess is continue my work at the golf course and try to get more boxes up there and maybe on other golf courses or similar places. But I don't know what to say about the BCCH. There are always lots of them around and they clearly DO nest successfully around here in the woods so I am unsure whether I should leave boxes up for them. I could put 1 1/8 hole restictors on right from the beginning to stop EABL using the boxes, but of course this would not save the BCCH from the HOWR. Perhaps if I provided lots of boxes like that the BCCH would manage to successfully use some, but I have also read that the HOWR will destroy all other nests and fill all other boxes with it's twigs in it's territory. Any suggestions would be welcome. I am obviously very sad that I will not be able to have EABL nesting in my yard and upset about the destruction of these two nests, but I want to do whatever is best to avoid this happening again. Jane Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 08:38:13 -0400 Dear Jane and All: You have my deepest sympathy and understanding regarding your decision that your property cannot best serve the Eastern Bluebird due to House Wren problems. I, too, do not have Bluebird boxes in my yard. You have the unique ability to communicate with others, and that is worth all the boxes one can have. Sincerely, Betty Nichols Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 09:16:04 -0400 (EDT) Joe Huber Venice,Fl. Hello Jane and all, Sorry to her about your House Wren attack on a Eastern Bluebird and Chickadee nest. Generally in NY. the first nesting of EABL has little trouble with the House Wren,but in your case there were still eggs in the nest. I've never heard of a HOWR harming a bluebird but they do peck holes in eggs and also remove them from the nest. The EABL nests earlier in the spring before the HOWR returns and most of the time the blue bird nest is far enough along that it is completed before the HOWR cause any real problem. }he best thing you can do is watch and see if these birds will continue to tend to whats left in their nest. I'll bet their awareness level for HOWR is peeked and they will watch closely from now on. You still have hopes for one bluebird fledging and six Chickadees. its worth the effort to save these. Don't think either the bluebird or chickadee will abandon due to the HOWR raid. Chickadees are more sensitive about other bird species entering their nest. You should know by now if they are staying with their nest. A more open box location could improve success for the EABL as they can better defend against the HOWR with more open space for the wren to cross. Let us hear how it turns out. Joe ... Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 14:44:49 EDT To all those who wrote about my HOWR attack, Many, many thanks for your advice and comfort. I think part of the problem is that my poor EABL got a late start. They were only on about the sixth day of incubation. The situation is very sad and I have been out all morning watching what is going on. It APPEARS that the EABL have abandoned their one egg since they are now checking out the one empty box that is in the open and I have not seen them go to the old box at all. The poor things seem so confused and it looks like they are trying to start all over again. I will of course wait for awhile before assuming they have definitely abandoned but if they have I still have a decision to make about whether to let them start again in the other box. Even that is only about 40' from the trees and it is very close to my deck. I am hearing a HOWR alot, so I think it would probably be best to take the boxes down and let them find a better spot. I do not want to let this happen to them all over again. The chickadees do not seem to be around their box either but I have not been able to observe that as much (it's on the other side of the house) and they are usually less easily seen going in and out. I will of course leave theirs for awhile too. Chris Statton has written that I might try Bob Orthweinn's Wren Guard for use with chickadees and I will look into that. In any case I will use whatever boxes I take down at the golf course I am monitoring or maybe even at another one. You have all been wonderfully supportive, Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 18:44:47 -0400 Joe and others, First Bluebird nestings in central New York State this year seem to be in various stages. My neighbor has 10-day-old chicks that I'm going to band tomorrow, another neighbor has a pair just laying, I have two pair incubating, and one pair that hasn't even decided on a box yet (or should I say half of one pair; he likes the box, she's not sure). We've had some warm weather in March, followed by cold rainy weather in April, and it's warming up again this week. Do you think the experience and age of the female has anything to do with WHEN they start nesting? Brenda... Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 00:44:11 EDT Kathy Clark The House Wrens are home!! I live in a wooded area so I hear these fellas singing all the day long. I put up boxes in the woods for them and basically that is working for the most part. For the newbies House Wrens make dummy nests and lots of them. The completed nest cannot be removed by law and of course if they are laying.. please leave it alone.. They will fill up your nestboxes with sticks to the top and only use one of them. Gosh I remember someone saying they filled up a flicker box last year..that's quite a WREN NEST!! Sometimes we have to learn to think like a wren now! The completed nest will have a lining in the nest cup, it will feel like cloth inside. If that wren wants that box this will be done in #(%*())*#( !!! Watch for the dummy nests..The House Wren is one determined little bird!! Somehow I always think of this bird.. as laughing at us!! He wants that box.. and darnit he will have it! I find a place that suits the wrens on my trails and leave them alone. There is a great article on Jimmy's page about the wrens.. and I remember something recently but can't place it right now. It was telling us how to think like a WREN! Kathy Clark Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 22:07:07 -0400 I WAS HOPING TO GET INFORMATION ON A PROBLEM I HAVE. MY NEST HAD 5 EGGS IN IT AND WAS WELL TENDED BY MALE AND FEMALE BLUEBIRD. I EXPECTED THEM TO HATCH THIS WEEK. INSTEAD I FOUND 3 OF THE EGGS ON THE GROUND BY THE BOX. THEY WERE BROKEN BUT NOT SMASHED. THERE APPEARED TO BE NO EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING CLIMBING . IT EVEN APPEARS AS IF THE EGGS WERE NOT EATEN JUST BROKEN. THERE IS ONE EGG IN THE NEST YET BUT I DO NOT SEE THE PARENTS TENDING TO IT. I WOULD SUSPECT ANOTHER BIRD WOULD HAVE DONE THIS. STILL HAVE TROUBLE UNDERSTANDING HOW THEY MOVED THEM FROM THE BOX. ANY IDEAS? Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 07:36:11 -0400 Dennis, et al Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 09:42:34 -0400 (EDT) Joe Huber Venice Fl Hi Dennis and all, Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 10:59:21 -0400 (EDT) ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Hello all; My Chickadee nestlings (2, I believe) have fledged and I was cleaning out the nest box yesterday when I decided to check on my "roosting" flying squirrel. He/She was occupying my "downy woodpecker" nest box the last time I checked. Imagine my surprise when a Wren came darting out of the box when I opened it!! I decided to continue to open the box to see what surprises were inside, when I noticed 3 sets of eyes staring back at me!! It seems that the wren has built a nest on top of the Flying Squirrels nest!! The nest "system" inside the box is in the shape of a "C" and too high for me to see if the wrens' nest had any eggs. Well, I wish them both luck and this could give new meaning to "Can't we all just get along!?!" Tracy McAbee-Pheneger Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 22:16:44 -0400 TO ALL WHO HELPED. THANKS. IT WAS A WREN I SAW IT THIS AM. WILL TRY A NEW BOX SOMEWHERE CLOSE BY AND FILL THE OLD BOX WITH STICKS. I LIVE BETWEEN READING AND POTTSVILLE PA. ALONG I78 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 14:02:00 -0400 As some of you may be aware, I have a house wren building a nest in a bluebird box. He has now piled twigs up as far as the door. Assuming they decide to actually use this nest, I'm wondering how I will be able to monitor it? The box opens from the side, and the pile of twigs is so close to the top that even using a mirror it's difficult to see the inside of the cup. This box came with a little screen at the bottom to deter blowflies. If I remove that screen (assuming I can do so without destroying the nest) in order to lower the whole thing, will the wren simply build it back up again? Anybody have any good ideas? Katherine Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 06:48:02 EDT Here's another! After seeing the photo of eggs with holes from a wren's beak, one child wanted to know if a house sparrow would go after a house wren? Anybody know of any such incidents? The child had given it some real thought; had figured out that the wren is smaller and probably couldn't really fight back, but on the other hand maybe that size would help the wren in the box even if the house sparrow has got shorter wings. *I* think a few of them are regarding birds as a Nature's version of Pokemon. But they are sure rooting for the BBs/dees/titmice/tree swallows team! Rhonda Watts Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 19:54:42 -0400 I had one incident a few year ago where I witnessed a wren to into a sparrow and beat the heck of the female who was building a nest. Sparrow huffed and puffed a long time before flying away. I think the house wren will take on anything. Lynn near Reading ... Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 08:37:55 -0400 Thanks for all the good suggestions about monitoring house wrens. I have gently attempted to (a) remove a few twigs to make it lower (b) slide the entire nest out to look at it (c) use a mirror. I was entirely unsuccessful with the first two methods, and did not persist for fear of disturbing the nest. The mirror is unsatisfactory because the nest is really too high to see into even with a mirror. I still see the wrens around that box, especially in the morning, so I do think they are intending to use it. I don't think there are any eggs yet. So here's my question. By removing two screws from the top and inserting, instead, the pin that now holds the side closed, I could probably convert this box from side- to top-opening. I would, in other words, be able to slide the top off (assuming it's not also glued, which I don't know). If I chose a time to make this modification when the wrens are not working on their nest, and did it without disturbing the contents, do you think they would mind? ... Katherine Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:36:53 -0400 I was successful in converting my side-opening box to a top-opening box by temporarily removing one of the two screws in the top, whereby the whole roof pivots on the other screw, allowing me to look inside with a mirror. I will try to find something to use as a pin to insert (the one for the side is too big and I don't want to drill a bigger hole at this point) so I don't have to keep tightening and loosening the screw. I was rewarded for my efforts by finding an egg in the box this evening. It must have been laid this morning, since it wasn't there last night when I performed my little operation on the box. The nest itself, with a deep cup, seems to be made almost entirely of twigs, large and small, and maybe just a little dried grass, with very little in the way of soft lining. In fact today I saw one of the wrens *removing* a twig. Maybe he was adjusting the fit? Does anyone know if this scenario is normal for house wrens? Katherine Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 10:53:06 EDT Hi all, I read with interest and agreement yesterday's posts about not setting up birds for attacks by House Sparrows (HOSP) and cats. In some places (my area for example) it seems that House Wrens (HOWR) are a much bigger problem. HOWR are very common and do not need any help and yet I read about people leaving up boxes for them on this list quite frequently. Should we not be discouraging this too? It is possible that the HOWR will attack not only the nests
of other cavity nesters but those of non-cavity nesters too.
I am fairly certain from Surely, we on this list shouldn't be adding to the number of HOWR and wren houses. Jane Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 16:05:05 -0400 I want to thank everyone who answered my queries about putting up another box for prospective bluebirds (EABL) now nesting in a nearby community garden. The replies have varied widely, running the gamut from categorically catastrophic to cautiously optimistic. The problem poses an interesting challenge and I will have to think it through carefully because I want to do what is best for all the birds. In the process I hope you will be patient enough to consider the following summation of the status quo, and advise in the light of same. This morning I went over to the garden and ascertained that there are indeed bluebirds nesting there. There are several boxes, none more than 30-40 feet apart: three standard bluebird-type boxes (that may well have been put up as a "trio") and three smaller and/or decorative ones. None of the boxes has stovepipe or other baffles, all are too high to be easily monitored except by a very tall person, and the place is rife with HOSP and god only knows what else. I was the only human present at the time so could observe at my leisure, and I saw that HOSP occupy one box, bluebirds another, and the rest have unknown or no tenants. I didn't see any HOuse WRens, but given the propinquity of trees and brush, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were around. There might also be TREe Swallows, but I didn't see any. I should emphasize that this is not a trail, but an isolated setup. There may be more cavities in the trees, but there is only one box that the bluebirds would use because they are all so close together. Situation at my place: 1 box on lawn (HOWR), 1 hanging box (BCCH); 1 box in woods (TUTI); 1 box on roadside tree (vacant, too small for BL); 1 box in woods (vacant). I could take this last one down and pole-mount it on the lawn, or buy a new one. Given the situation at the garden, I cannot help but feel that the blues would be better off at my place, under my close supervision, with baffled boxes and NO HOSP, even if there is a HOWR nesting nearby. (This particular wren, by the way, has, so far, been very well behaved. Notwithstanding the presence of three empty boxes he has filled only one, and his mate is now laying eggs in it.) So, ASSUMING (and that's a big "if") the bluebirds realize there's a house for rent over here, the challenge involves timing and location. The chickadees will fledge long before the HOWR (who so far have laid 3 eggs, so they won't be ready to start over for about a month). There will then be 3 empty boxes, for I believe chickadees raise only one brood this far north, providing the first is successful. I don't know whether the titmice will try a second nesting, but if they don't, that box will become available too, very shortly. So the HOWR will have plenty of boxes to play with in a wooded setting by the time they're ready for a second brood, by which time the EABLs may have already hatched. The neighboring EABLs - always assuming they realize there's a house for rent over here - will be ready to start another nest before the HOWR are ready to move out, and the box in the middle of the lawn (HOWR) will not yet be available. The good news (so I read) is that the HOWR won't bother the EABLs while they're busy with their own nest. If I do decide to put up a second box, the question then becomes where to place it so the bluebirds will use it, because the open space on the lawn is not very large (about 30' x 60') and the box that I had intended for them is already taken (HOWR). Closer to the road, or closer to the woods? What is the closest I could put a second box to the other (HOWR) box and still hope for peaceful cohabitation? Could I move the wren box closer to the edge of the woods, a foot or two per day? Or will the wrens abandon it? I don't want to do the wrong thing, but I would hate to have a bluebird swing by only to leave for lack of available housing! -- Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 16:17:07 -0400 Hello Jane and all. I have observed that HOuse WRens (HOWR) are much more dangerous birds to other birds (even those not using nest-boxes) than the HOuse SParrows (HOSP). In addition, they (the HOWR) are protected by law and are not in any way in danger. If a HOWR uses a nestbox, the number of HOWR for next year is as many more as the number that fledges from the box. Whoever has them (HOWR) has a problem which will get bigger in time... What makes them a bigger problem is that they can use entrance holes all the way down to 1" and they love the 1&1/2" we use for bluebirds. Please note that it is legal to remove the "sticks" the HOWR uses for building a nest as long as there are no eggs yet. It is thus possible to remove such a box completely if caught in time. Thus, frequent monitoring of nestboxes can save the day... Planning where the nestbox is placed is also very important: as far away from treelines as possible, about 200' will do fine. Fawzi ... Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:04:53 -0400 I know a lot of you don't like house wrens, but this is really strange and I would be grateful for any enlightenment you can give me: House wrens built a nest in the box on my lawn. On Wednesday, the last time I checked the box, there were three eggs in it, and the nest was decorated with three or four blue jay feathers. I hadn't checked it since then partly because of the rainy weather, and yesterday we were out of town. So this morning I looked inside (unscrewed the top and looked in with a mirror, so I had a perfect view), expecting to see three or four more eggs, and there are NO EGGS in the nest - and, stranger still, NO FEATHERS. Needless to say I am very upset and also bewildered. This box is protected by a 7 in. diam. stovepipe baffle, and is not within jumping distance of any trees. The nest itself is undisturbed, no twigs poking out the hole or any other telltale signs. Not turned from its accustomed position facing south. Just completely empty. I have never seen a snake around here of any size (and it would have to be a a pretty big snake to stand on its tail or get up around the baffle), and I have never known a raccoon or cat to get past one of those baffles. And why would either culprit remove the feathers? I rule out human vandalism - none of the other nests are harmed and they would have to come armed with a screwdriver in order to just lift things out without disturbing the twigs. Plus someone is almost always home (except yesterday). Could the wrens themselves have done this? I know they are still around - saw and heard one of them this morning. Could they have destroyed (and removed) the eggs and removed the feathers? If this nest is indeed abandoned, that may solve my quandary about making it available for potential bluebird tenants. I could pair it with another box closer to the trees in case the wrens want to try again. How long need I wait before I empty the nestbox and make it available for someone else? -- Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:21:00 -0400 The nest is *not* abandoned. I looked again to see if I had been hallucinating, and indeed the situation has not changed. But....Mr. HOuse WRen was singing his heart out from a treetop and as soon as I backed off , someone else (I have to believe Mrs. Wren?) brought some small stuff into the empty nest. Could it be a different pair of HOWR? Could they have destroyed the eggs and decor of the first pair and be starting their own family in the same box? If it's the same pair, would they rebuild in a box that had been raided just recently, when there are other empty boxes available? Katherine Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 00:43:10 -0500 Katherine, Oh, yah.... I had quite a HOuse WRen (HOWR) clinic going on last year. When the HOWR went into a HOuse SParrow nest to clear the way for himself, the first thing he did was remove a feather...and then the egg. (Probably came back later to collect the feather for his own nest!) I had one HOWR with seven eggs in the morning. Later that day they were all gone. No evidence, nothing. But, a HOWR from a neighboring box and the HOWR of the missing-egg box tusseled with each other. The missing-eggs HOWR won...but the eggs were still gone. The missing-eggs HOWRs added a few more twigs and within four days started laying eggs again. (By their behavior, I'm saying it was the same couple. In addition, the attacking HOWR was kind of easy to track because he had two nests already going elsewhere.) Seven days later, she had seven eggs again. A week later the seven eggs are being incubated and are nice and toasty. The next day, she had just six eggs. (Honest.) At day 14, the eggs hatch. I can count at least five (they are very small and wiggly) babies. The next day there are four babies. (Really.) Two days later they are all gone. Six days later, she's laying eggs again! She's incubating five eggs and we go on vacation for a week. Guess how many eggs were there when we got home? Right. Zero. The funny thing is, this attacking HOWR expended so much energy, he only had three babies fledge himself...and one of his four eggs did not hatch! Oh, yah. These HOWR are a laugh a minute. Molly Miller PS The HOWRs seem to really like the pretty blue jay feathers! Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 07:48:02 -0400 That's very interesting, and it makes me all the more convinced that the culprit here is, indeed, another wren. This morning I saw two wrens chasing each other around, one went into the box and the other stood on top. When wren #1 came out, wren #2 chased him/her into the bushes. Too bad it's impossible to distinguish male from female - apparently the wrens aren't too good at it either in the initial stages. According to Stokes the male often attempts to rout a prospective mate, thinking she's another male before he discovers she isn't. ... Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:33:46 EDT Did I miss something? Has this list changed it's name to Wren-L? Is it now a list for people who want to encourage House Wrens to breed? Or has there been some past agreement that the list members should help House Wrens? ( the last is a genuine question) It is hard for those of us who have lost bluebird ( and other ) eggs to House Wren attacks, and are desperately trying to fend off the House Wrens with whatever methods we can to read about helping House Wrens. If such stuff was being written about House Sparrows there would be an outcry. Am I the only one who feels that discussions of how to aid House Wrens should be somewhere else or even better not at all? (In the light of the known facts about their staggering numbers and devastation to other birds.) If so, I think I'll unsubcribe, because I feel that it is inconsistent and misleading about the aims of the list for members (inexperienced and experienced) to voice such vociferous (and justifiable) arguments against House Sparrows, cats etc. and not see anyone posting to the list to discourage people from helping House Wrens to breed. Jane Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:55:22 -0400 I'm beginning to be sorry I started this whole thing by asking a question about house wrens; I realize I should have kept my mouth shut. However, one doesn't learn if one doesn't ask. I am an inexperienced nestbox landlord and monitor, and my query concerned a situation which I found very strange. Molly and others, including you, Jane, have answered my post with information that I found very enlightening, because it helps solve what I saw as a mystery. I have read the article about the Great Wren Debate, and found it very interesting. I do not interpret any of this, in any way, as an encouragement to protect HOWR - in fact, most of what people have said has been just the opposite. I don't think there is a single post here that encourages the breeding of house wrens. They just describe and explain situations that may arise or have arisen in the experience of the authors - (including a recent post by Hatch about bluebirds taking over a wren nest!). This list is supposed to be about cavity nesters, and house wrens, however unwelcome among bluebirders, are cavity nesters and protected birds. I don't think anything is to be gained by avoiding the subject. The fact that I allowed HOWR to build in that box can be chalked up to my ignorance, if you like, and perhaps also to my feeling that I would get no bluebirds anyway and the box might as well be used. Be that as it may, the fact remains that there is still a complete nest in that box. The nest was emptied and the decor removed; it was NOT destroyed. So I cannot legally remove it and must live with the presence of the house wrens, at least for this year. But I remain convinced that, the more one knows, the better equipped one is to make informed decisions. And therefore I am grateful to those who have answered my questions about wrens, chickadees, titmice - and even bluebirds. I hope next year to have some of my own. Katherine Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 13:10:56 -0400 I have not noticed a preponderance of HOWR discussions. I think the questions could be viewed as academic perhaps. Cannot anyone unsubscribe quietly without precipitating more arguments and consequent bad feeling? ( the last is a genuine question). -- Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 15:26:24 -0400 Hello all. We live and learn! I recall a few years ago when I had a box intended for house wrens (HOWR)! At that time I had no idea we even had eastern bluebirds (EABL). They used to appear (the EABL) once every couple of years and I rarely saw them. Also, I had no idea how the HOWR filled nests with sticks, put holes in other birds eggs, etc. Now I know better. I see that Kate is learning fast, which is better than what I could do years ago (I did not have such a great group to learn from as the Bluebird-L). Jane, Kate, and now I know about the damage of HOWR to other cavity nesting birds. I am sure the experienced members on the list also know as well. It is important for us to learn from each other... My thanks to all of the list members. I have learned a great deal from you all, and I am sure I have much more to learn... Fawzi Emad, Laytonsville, MD Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:20:44 -0400 Susan Brownell About your new BB nest. Aren't you afraid the wrens will be back? Can you move the box? At my daughter's, on Saturday April 29, we found the same thing: 5 eggs on the ground. We moved the box, and the new eggs are due to hatch anytime. JaneHopeC"at"aol.com on 05/24/2000 10:36:14 AM Please respond to JaneHopeC"at"aol.com To: Bluebird-L"at"cornell.edu Hi all. Yes, I'm still here, (groans of dismay or sighs of relief?!) thanks to all those who wrote with support and guidance. I apologize to any who felt my House Wren post was meant to start an argument. It wasn't. It stemmed from my own confusion and frustration. I understand things a bit better now. Some observations of a first year monitor on figuring out which nests are which. Pictures in books and descriptions by other people have been helpful but not conclusive and I am very glad that I have waited until there are eggs or seen the birds using the box to decide whose nest is whose. Eastern Bluebirds (EABL) have mostly used pine needles, sometimes grasses sometimes both. Tree Swallows (TRES) have used grasses and pine needles, then white feathers. Sometimes TRES nests look like EABL nests to start off with sometimes they look like HOSP. Some HOSP nests fill the box, many do not. HOSP use just about anything eventually. One was all leaves, strips of bark, no junk, grass or feathers! ( I thought at first this might be Tufted Titmouse (TUTI) ).The only nests I can be pretty sure of before there are eggs are HOWR, all the twigs, and Black-Capped Chickadee (BCCH), moss, then fur with a neat hole in the middle for the eggs (which are covered when the parent is not in the box) and then the babies. I would not be able to recognize at this stage a Carolina Wren's nest if it jumped out and hit me on the head and shouted "Carolina Wren"! Latest interesting nest: an EABL nest which was mostly grasses had the eggs attacked by HOWR (sorry to mention it!) all dumped out of the box with little holes. It was quite a high nest so I removed some stuff from the bottom in case EABL started to build on top. Nothing for a week or so, then lots of tree catkins (not sure what kind) with pine needles on top looking all spikey and messy, like a miniature porcupine. Not sure what to think. Next visit, deep cup and one EABL egg! Until I have a lot more experience I don't think I will ever decide whose nest is whose until I see the birds or the eggs! Best wishes to all, Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:54:52 -0400 To what extent to HOuse WRens exhibit site fidelity? I now have an empty HOWR nest, two wrens actively decorating it (thin blue plastic strips this time - they appear to like blue), but no eggs yet. No bluebirds either, but hope springs eternal as somebody said. With the TUTI gone, there are now 3 empty boxes, soon to be four. Here's what I was thinking, and I submit it to your greater experience: 1. I take the wren box, now smack in the middle of a smallish lawn and move it, nest and all, about 15-20 feet closer to the woods (or to the roadside shrubbery... which is better?) 2. I wait to see if the wrens find it and continue decorating. 3. Once they have laid an egg or two, in that box (or in another empty one - I could plug up the empty titmouse box to prevent them from using that one) I put up a new bluebird box in the middle of the lawn. That will give me an empty box in case bluebirds should come over from the garden when it's time for their second or third brood. Questions: Would this work? Is it legal? What if they don't find the box... will they go away or use one of the other empty boxes in my yard? What will happen next year? Would the wrens be more likely to go to the woodside box or back to the one in the middle? Thanks for your input - this is really about making a box available
to bluebirds, not breeding wrens. Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:52:20 EDT Do house wren raise a second family like bluebirds? If not
do they calm down and become less destructive after their own
have fledged? Is there less danger to a second bluebird family
in the same box than to the first? Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 07:41:49 -0400 Yes, wrens will raise a second brood. They don't always keep the same mate for the second one, though. Brenda... Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 18:08:29 -0400 Disclaimer: This is NOT intended to be a post in praise of HOuse WRens, nor an encouragement to help them breed. It is merely a record of some observations over the past several days, which I have found interesting. Anyone who is not interested, please delete. You may remember that a week ago today, Sunday, I found the wren's nest empty, which had formerly contained 3 eggs and several blue jay feathers. Several people suggested the perpetrator might be another HOWR. I had inquired about the advisability/legality of moving this box closer to the trees and putting up a new one for bluebirds, but I received no replies and therefore, rather than do the wrong thing I did nothing, so the box is still in the middle of the lawn. HOWR activity continued around this same box on the subsequent days, with two HOWR making frequent trips to and fro. Impossible, of course, to know whether this was the original (evicted) pair, or a new (evictor) pair. On Wednesday, I found the nest lined with a few very thin strips of blue plastic, and this struck me because the feathers in the original nest were also blue. Has anyone studied color preferences in birds? The next day, however, the blue strips were gone. A few soft, white feathers had been added instead, and in the next couple of days more feathers were added. This is in contrast to the original nest which, except for the blue jay feathers (added *after the first eggs were laid), was practically bare. Yesterday an egg was laid in this nest, which is now fully lined with soft feathers and fur, and today there were two eggs. These eggs seem browner than the original eggs, and the large end is darker than the rest. That is the status as of this evening. The differences between the two nests/eggs suggest to me that the present pair is *not the original pair, but the evictors. The common thread is the color blue, although the plastic strips were removed in the process of "redecorating". If anyone has any comments on any of this, I would love to hear them. -- Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 08:55:24 -0400 Now you're all going to say "I told you so", and that's fine. You did. Yesterday a chickadee started a new nest in the hanging nestbox I had just cleaned out and hung back up after the first nestful of chickadees fledged yesterday morning. The last thing I saw last night as it was getting dark, were two chickadees around that nest, just lined with moss. The first thing this morning, a HOuse WRen was putting twigs in it, chirping and burbling for all he was worth. His mate was nearby. I don't know if this is the same HOWR that has a nest on the lawn across the driveway, complete with eggs and feathers, or if it's another pair - perhaps the pair that was evicted by that pair. I went down and removed the three or four twigs the HOWR had installed on top of the moss the chickadee had put in last night. I still hear him bubbling around out there, and I'm prepared to keep removing twigs. But I really need your advice, people, on the best way to proceed. I do NOT want HOWRs in that box. Ideally, I'd like the 'dees to continue their nest. But... If I keep removing twigs, will the HOWR abandon that site? If so, will the 'dee return, and if he does, will his eggs then be in danger when he lays them, or will the HOWR leave it alone once he's decided that isn't a safe nest site? How far should I let him build before removing stuff? Is it better to remove the twigs one by one or let him build halfway up the box and then remove the whole thing? Shall I take the box down, in which case it won't be available to anyone? No nesters would be better than HOWR, I suppose. I'm also afraid that if I take this box down, the HOWR may turn on the titmice who are building again up on the hill. I guess he might anyway. I used to enjoy the wren's bubbly song. Now I hate it. Please advise me! TIA -- Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 23:00:49 EDT I have had an egg in my bluebird house for about 2 weeks. Then just this weekend I discovered two more. Today, I went to check and two were in the house and one was on the ground right outside the nest. It was "empty" and had a small hole poked in it. It was perfect other than the small hole. Any ideas about what happened? Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 20:07:41 -0700 Kate, you are on the right track by using hanging box. You've already had a successful chickadee nesting in your hanging box, the chickadees must like the box since they were trying to nest again in the hanging box. I'd recommend you keep pulling twigs out of the solid-roofed hanging box while you build another (oh no, you say) hanging box. This time, make the front half of the roof wood and the back half out of plexiglas and see if that doesn't keep out house wrens. I've been adding these adaptations to the "wren" sites on my trail this year and it seems to be discouraging the twig-builders. Keep in mind that your hanging box keeps your birds out of
the reach of a wide range of predators. Additionally, if the
box is located in a tree, it Linda Violett Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 08:33:13 -0400 Lynn, et al, Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 23:19:05 -0400 On the strength of my own instinct plus what I have learned over the past months, here is what I decided to do about the house wren that invaded a hanging box just vacated by BCCH, which it looked as if the 'dees might be preparing to re-occupy (probably a second pair, since I know BCCH hardly ever raise more than one brood). This is still at the experimental stage, so the outcome is as yet uncertain. DISCLAIMER: No birds were harmed, nor nests or eggs destroyed in performing this experiment. Yesterday afternoon, I took stock of my nestbox inventory. I have five boxes on my property (1.5 acres), and two are currently in use (TUTI #2 and HOWR #2), not counting the contested 'dee box. I decided to relocate one box that had never been used - possibly a poor location - and pole-mounted it (without a predator guard) 15 feet from the hanging 'dee box that had been invaded. I then proceeded to plug the hole in the 'dee box, but did not take the box down. My hope was that the house wren, finding his chosen box closed, would use the other, leaving the 'dee box available *in case the 'dees came back . He did not. He scolded and scolded, and then left the scene. I strongly suspect this was the wren (#1) that got evicted from the box on the other side of the driveway (territory demarcation?) in which the evictor wren (#2) is now nesting, with 5 eggs as of today. This morning, hearing 'dees in the vicinity, I unplugged the hanging box and guess what? House wren #1 came right back to that box. So I plugged it again, and left it plugged for the rest of the day. At about 7:30 this evening, I saw the wren peering into the new box, standing on it and climbing around it. But he didn't go in. There are too many variables to really know why he prefers the 'dee box: one box is hanging, the other is pole-mounted; the hanging one is shallow, the new one is deep; they are both near trees and both sufficiently shaded; they both have wren/dee sized entrance holes and they both face generally east. We'll see what happens tomorrow. Next year, I will try pairing a wren box with the BL box on the other side of the driveway, putting the wren box closer to the woods. Hopefully the wren will use that one, leaving the BL box free... just in case. I had thought of doing it this year but there's already a HOWR (#2) in the BL box, so it's probably too late. I may not get bluebirds anyway, but you never know. I have a friend in Alabama who has EABLs in a habitat that is almost as wooded as mine. Incidentally, neither of the two wrens in question has built dummy nests, as far as I know, even though there were empty boxes available, and neither has bothered the TUTI up on the hill. Wren #1 did make a half-hearted pass at the BCCH while there were 'dee eggs in the hanging box, but was repelled in no uncertain terms. This strikes me as a particularly peaceable wren: repelled by chickadees, evicted by a more aggressive house wren, and still homeless as of tonight. I cannot help but feel sorry for him. Maybe, in order to have success as a HOWR, you have to be a thug. Well, that's my update for tonight. Any thoughts on this would, as always, be welcome. ... -- Problems with wrens on the bluebird trail (Part 2) |
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