Problems with snakes on the bluebird trail (Part 6)

In addition to Messages that have appeared in the Bluebird Mailing Lists on this topic, the following are on the Audubon Society of Omaha website:  Predators and Problems On The Bluebird Trail

From: Paula [mailto:PaulaZ"at"columbus.rr.com]
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 10:25 AM
Re: snakes and predators

Keith et al, I remember seeing a really great picture on Dr. Patricia Gowaty's website of a snake doing just this. I can no longer access her webpage though? Does anyone out there have a new web address for her research page or did she shut it down? Any one know? Also, if any of you have a picture or can link us to one of snake climbing to a nestbox, it would be great to see. Paula Z Powell (Central) Ohio

From: mrtony8 [mailto:mrtony8"at"cox.net]
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 11:19 AM
Re: snakes and predators

Paula, If you google rat snake or go to the website for Purple Martins you will see pics. Phil Berry

From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com]
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 4:30 PM
RE: snakes and predators

We must remember that the reports of snakes getting past these baffles are in the minority. I have been bluebirding for seven years. When I did not have proper guards and had grease on the pole to let me know what went up the pole, I had a tremendous snake predator problem. When I installed the Ron Kingston baffle and still put the grease on there to alert me to snakes crossing, it stopped it dead in its tracks. I think if you stay on top of monitoring, you will know when you have predator problems. (This is a must!) If I have snake problems ever again, I will go to plan "B" and that is try the large piece of hardware cloth that was recommended. I think we should be very careful that we are not giving the impression to the "newbies" that a guard is useless. DO put up the predator guards!! Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA

From: Cher [mailto:BluebirdNut"at"a-znet.com]
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 11:15 AM
Re: snakes and predators

What are we talking about -- I mean, what does all of this mean for the future of predator baffle design and/or promotion? Should we stop pushing proper mounting and baffling because it doesn't work? Or do we need to re-think the design of even the most effective baffle we know of -- the Kingston baffle? We can't hang our nestboxes in midair (if only!) so what's the next step? Cher

From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 9:06 AM
Re:snakes and predators Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant Texas

I ran out of time yesterday on my last post. The Ron Kingston guard works the best at deterring snakes because the snakes want to hide inside the stovepipe while they climb the nestbox pole. When they get close to the box they can see and smell the nestbox but are not smart enough to figure out that they cannot get through the wire. If you make a solid top to the stovepipe guard they can quickly figure out that the scent is stronger outside the pipe than inside the pipe. Thus they would try harder to crawl up the outside of the stovepipe. The 36" diameter hardware cloth flat guard works better than solid sheet metal for the same reason. Most snakes can't figure out to go around the outside edge, the up and over. All 60 of Harry Krueger's nestboxes were protected with 4" diameter PVC pipe slipped down over 1" water pipe. (This was back in the days before Ron's guard was first used and Texas Parks and Wildlife biologists said that NO PREDATOR CAN CLIMB PVC PIPE!) The PVC was 40" long and rested on the ground. (way to short for East Texas rat snakes, Speckled Kingsnakes and Eastern Coachwhip snakes.) Fire ants often built up inside the PVC pipe creating problems for the birds and those checking the nestboxes. 6 of the nestboxes also had conical raccoon guards that were 36" in diameter above the PVC guards. ALL of the boxes were also protected with a band of grease on the water pipe and a snake trap made from 3/4" polypropylene "bird netting". Each year Harry would trap 6-9 snakes that crossed all of the PVC guards and grease. On average about every other year he would trap a snake that crossed the PVC, metal raccoon guard, grease and get hung up in the snake trap. We sent photo's to TP&W biologists of raccoon tracks that climbed right up the PVC pipe to reach nestboxes for bluebirds and wood ducks. Every other year or so he trapped a snake that even crossed the mesh snake trap ate the baby birds, eggs or adult and was caught on the way down with a full belly. He had MANY nestboxes/traps that NEVER caught a single snake! Did all of these other guards work? Did other predators even try to climb? Research is showing that snakes remember where to find a meal. Jack Finch found that snakes could learn how to climb a guard quicker the second and third time they encountered it. If you use the Harry Krueger mesh snake trap above ALL your guards YOU will know if snakes are learning to get over your guards. WHY do bluebirds often abandon a location when they lose eggs or young to a predator? Do they have millions of years experience that the snake WILL come back? Should WE be moving nestboxes around our trails every year? I tend to place nestboxes for MY convenience and not where they are absolutely the safest for the birds! The longer a type of guard is used the LESS effective they are at stopping predators! For years 4" PVC pipe was said to be totally raccoon proof! Metal pipe was supposed to be raccoon proof. How many styles of squirrel guards have been used for bird feeders? How many actually work? Many nestbox designs were invented to thwart predators! Some designs worked great for years in one location but did not work a single season at another. We need to remember that there are many different predators across the country. Predators have learned different skills in different areas. By sharing information and using different guards very often we can buy the birds a few seasons before predators adapt. If you have snakes in your area and you use guards that you KNOW are snake proof then use the Harry Krueger mesh trap above your guards to be sure. KK

From: charlene anchor [mailto:charleneanchor"at"msn.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 9:58 AM
Subject: the future of predator guards?

It doesn't make sense to me to eliminate predator guards just because they don't always work. Guess we just have to accept that they won't always work. But the important thing is that many times they WILL work. Unless we can watch our boxes 24 hrs a day we'll never know how many predators are deterred. We only see the ones that are successful and raid the nests! I would definitely encourage the best protection of boxes as possible. I think newcomers could enjoy more success by applying these methods. A person could get discouraged by the heartbreak of loosing their fledglings, eggs, etc. and give up instead. Charlene Anchor, Illinois

From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 10:39 AM
RE: the future of predator guards?

Charlene, there are two ways that can alert a person that something has reached the nestbox. As Keith pointed out a snake trap right below the nestbox or heavy grease on the guard and pole can let you know if something has crawled through it. In my case, the grease happened to be black that time and you could spot it long before you reached the nestbox. Another thing that helps me know, is I always look for the fledglings after they come back in a few days. Many times, they will sit on the power-line, trees close by or even the nestbox itself. That helps me know they made it. Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA

[See continued discussion about plastic buckets under Guards, Part 4)

From: Patricia Self [mailto:cself "at"elmore.rr.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 10:39 AM
Subject: The Bluebird

Hello, Bruce--I'm so new to this Bluebird list and thus far am finding all sorts of different people, all interesting and none unwilling to say his/her piece. Although Charles and I've had bluebird houses for years, we neglected them the past few years and the houses fell into disrepair. We've just replaced them all and plan to take up active watching again (I'm now retired, and Charles has been for two years, so we have no excuses any more). My question has multiplied into a couple, after reading some of the conversations. ---------------------- When we put up the houses (maybe 1986 or so), I used a spray treatment on the posts called "Tanglefoot." The original can is long used up, so I asked in a couple of stores nearby (but not the Feed and Grain store where I bought it before) what they had to keep snakes off the posts. What appears to be the only available treatment to keep away snakes is a container of granules, renewed every two months or so. One would sprinkle this stuff around the base of the bird-house post, I guess. Does anybody use this sort of thing? Is it a danger to other animals? Do birds pick up the stuff, thinking it's a food? To the internet I went, only to find that unintended consequences seem to have given the manufacturer an entirely different use for it these days: applied to rooftops and other places where unwanted birds light and/or build nests, it is now a bird repellent. I find that repelling. ...Patricia Self and Deatsville, Alabama

From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot "at"mtco.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 8:39 PM
Re: The Bluebird

...Personally, I prefer using baffles on bluebird poles to deter any climbing predators. Grease can also be applied to poles to indicate that a snake/raccoon attempted to rob the nestbox. Ron Kingston has a simple baffle that can be made from stovepipe. Menards, Lowe's, etc sells black stovepipe that isn't too obtrusive. http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/nabs/rk1.htm Our garden stores still sell tanglefoot. Be careful about using so much of it that birds also become stuck. Dottie Roseboom Peoria IL (central - zone 5)

From: Patricia Self [mailto:cself "at"elmore.rr.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 1:05 AM
Re: The Bluebird

...The baffle idea works, I know, for squirrels and other such predators. Does anybody know that it will work against snakes? I detest snakes, and thought about making and installing some sort of baffle, BUT I figured the nasty things could wend their way up the pole and around the baffle into the birdhouse. I was careful using the Tanglefoot and only went 3' up the pole from the ground. I didn't do too much, just enough so the wood felt tacky to the touch. I'll make some calls around our garden stores to see if it might still be available. Patricia Self Deatsville, AL

From: Shane&Emily Marcotte [mailto:marco50 "at"bellsouth.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 9:46 AM
Re: The Bluebird

Yes the baffle works for snakes.This is the main reason I use them here.So far I havnt had any problems.I also by the advice of Evelyn Cooper use grease on the nestbox pole to keep out ants.This also works well as I have seen the dead ants in the grease.But the grease alone wont stop snakes.Welcome to the list.Enjoy. Shane Marcotte Watson Louisiana

From: Cher [mailto:BluebirdNut "at"a-znet.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 6:30 AM
Subject: Baffles

Patricia, You joined this list just in time to miss the nice in-depth discussion we had about predator baffles just a couple of weeks ago. I'm sure Bet is in the process of archiving it for the "Best of BB-L" pages, but in the meantime the upshot of the conversation is this: No predator baffle appears to be 100% snake-proof, but still they are very important. The best design known at present is the Kingston Stovepipe baffle. The idea with this baffle is that the snake will wend its way up the pole UNDER the baffle, and will be stopped by the hardware cloth at the top. The baffle must "wobble", or it will be ineffective. Some folks have also had success in using inverted 5-gallon plastic buckets with a hole drilled through the bottom and suspended on the mounting post. Here's a link to a how-to on building the Kingston baffle: http://birds.cornell.edu/birdhouse/bhbasics/guardsto.pdf Cher

From: John Schuster [mailto:wildwingco "at"earthlink.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 11:09 AM
Subject: Proper use of Tanglefoot
  ... 

Tanglefoot is something you should be very careful with. I've used the stuff for years, and have come up with a method of application that is effective and makes clean up easy. I like to use 3/4 inch EMT poles on our nest boxes, but you can use this method on U-BARS, wood post or anything for that matter.

I like to apply Tanglefoot about mid way on the mounting poles. Tanglefoot picks up all kinds of stuff, so to make it last longer, place it above ground so it will not pick up leafs, grass cuttings, dirt etc.

Now tightly wrap some green garden tape over 3 to 4 inches around the mounting pole. If you are using U-BARS on your trails, then you need to plug up all the gaps, and then warp the works as mentioned. You can place some duck tape at the top and bottom of the green tape to secure it or just knot it off (which is what I do.)

Now place a band of Tanglefoot (about the width of your thumb) all around the middle of the green garden tape and your done.

When the Tanglefoot has outlived it's usefulness, take some box cutters, slice through the green garden tape, remove the works and properly dispose of it in your garbage can. Now, just replace it as before.

One last thing, insects will bridge over to your nesting boxes if anything is touching the nest box (bushes, wire etc.) so make sure nothing is touching the nest box.

As far as the snake guards go, just pick one form the previous post that fits your pistol.
...
John Schuster

From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot "at"mtco.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: The Bluebird

Hi Patricia, The webpage that I referred you to:  http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/nabs/rk1.htm  illustrates how to make the Kingston baffle. It also explains why this particular baffle is more successful against snakes than just a regular squirrel baffle. This particular baffle has hardware cloth (pick up at Menards, when you get the stovepipe) covering the top end of the stovepipe. The snake climbs the pole, hits the cloth, can smell/hear the nestlings, but can't get to them, so he crawls back down the pipe and goes away. Although no guard is 100% effective against ALL predators, most people have fewer losses if they use such a baffle. In my area, the baffle also prevents mice from claiming nestboxes (as long as the mice can't jump from surrounding vegetation).
    Dottie Roseboom
    Peoria    IL    (central - zone 5)

From: charlene anchor [mailto:charleneanchor "at"msn.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 8:57 PM
Subject: Tanglefoot and snake guards

Hi Patricia, Welcome to the list. You may have already received replies about Tanglefoot.  I started using it as an ant deterrent last year.  It does a SUPER job but it is VERY tacky and therefore a little inconvenient to use. If you use it, you will need to be careful to apply it to the post somewhere where birds won't come in contact with it as they are unable to get it off. Instead, some people will use petroleum jelly for ants to avoid these problems.  Tanglefoot will not deter snakes - I've had them go right through thick applications of it. Being in the South you probably have more snakes than I do.  If I were you I would attach at least an 8" diameter Kingston stovepipe guard to your pole.  These guards will also help to deter coons.  I had the same experience as you this year when I went to buy more Tanglefoot.  The stores are now marketing it as a bird repellant.  It is supposed to target the pest birds like starlings, pigeons and house sparrows when they land on your gutters.  Now I'm not sure how you keep other birds from landing on the same places?  I really didn't like the idea either!  Does anyone know what the granules are that you are referring to? Good luck with your bluebirds.  I hope this helps Other folks on the list may have more answers for you. Charlene Anchor, Illinois 

From: Patricia Self [mailto:cself "at"elmore.rr.com]
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: Tanglefoot and snake guards

Thank you for this information, Charlene.  Given the amount of wildlife in our area, it sounds as if the Kingston stovepipe will be the best way for us to keep our bluebirds safe.  As for the other, it's marketed as Snake-A-Way and this is a link to one of the websites: http://www.biconet.com/critter/saw.html . Patricia Self

From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com]
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 12:56 PM
Subject: Cresote Posts, Snakes And Ants

Someone asked me the question if creosote post will keep snakes and ants off. Don’t have time to look it up

Don't we wish it were true!!
Phil Berry

From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 8:18 AM
Subject: Re:Creosote posts, Snakes and Ants

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas
Creosote can be a deadly toxin to many organisms! It is commonly used to treat railroad ties, power poles, bridge and pier pilings and any other wood that will come into ground contact, wood used under water or that needs to be protected against termites or other wood boring insects, fungi or other wood destroying organisms.

You make the best creosote by taking hard coal and simply heating it till it cooks off the volatile gases in the absence of oxygen. Remove the methane gas and condense the coal vapor and you have a gooey, smelly, flammable semi-liquid filled with minerals and compounds formed or leached into the fossilized plant carbon over millions of years under extremely high pressure. You can also collect the incompletely burned smoke and fumes from burning coal in steam boilers. (Remember the old movies of steam locomotives pulling train cars and belching out black smoke? This is creosote going to
waste.)

OK this is a naturally occurring organic carbon material that resists water, salt or attacks by insects and most organisms trying to break down this "chemical compound". (This protects railroad ties for about fifty years. On average it takes 2,500 hardwood trees 16" in diameter to build or replace one mile of new railroad tracks.) This does NOT mean that it will stop woodpeckers from hammering into this greasy, smelly pressure treated wood while trying to hammer out a home in that tall dead power pole "Tree Snag"!

Snakes will climb up power poles literally dripping with creosote when they smell baby birds or their droppings in a nestbox mounted to a power pole.
Fresh, liquid creosote will stop ants from climbing up the pole but creosote and other oils becomes more solid at lower temperatures and over the years, time will allow most of the fumes to dissipate and some ants tolerate the high sulfur fumes coming out of this treated wood and will live in the nesting material inside of nestboxes mounted to power poles. They climb up and down the poles crossing this chemical to reach the ground where they find food and water.

Most "snake repellant" store bought materials contain sulfur and or the chemical found in "moth balls." These DO NOT work at repelling snakes!
Neither will hydrated lime (which is simply the ash of scrap marble ((soft rock used for building materials and statues)) burned at high temperature!)

Used motor oils or vegetable oils DO NOT work at stopping snakes from climbing mounting poles. Steel water pipe or electrical conduit are NOT smooth enough to stop SNAKES from climbing up the poles. A PERFECTLY smooth pipe, hand rubbed with steel wool and coated with hard car waxes can have gooey, sticky spider webs blow into it and create a surface covered with spider silk rope ladders allowing ants to climb up these web ladder rungs just hours after you work on these poles! A perfectly smooth and clean car finish will be totally covered in muddy rain drops or pollen or honey dew in a matter of days creating a surface that snakes and ants can again easily climb so will all nestbox mounting poles!

Just remember that snakes and ants HAVE to eat and drink something today!
They need someplace to live today or find temporary shelter! If you don't want them and your neighbors don't want them then where will they live:-)))

Our county generates more electricity (4 thousand mega watts minimum) by burning hard Wyoming coal every hour than the entire country of Iraq will produce in one hour. At 5 AM the coal train coming into one of the two plants blew their whistle and woke me up! They have burned as much as 5,000 tons of coal in the last two hours in six generating units.

Today these two plants will burn enough coal to cover three acres of land 1 foot thick in coal. It takes 15,000 tons of coal to produce a single acre foot of coal. When they strip mined coal in our county they moved 50 tons of dirt for every ton of coal they burn! Texas will generate and use enough electricity today to power the whole continent of Africa.

It truly amazes me that plants that grew millions of years ago, thousands of miles from my house were used this morning by American Electric Power company to heat the water that made the coffee I am drinking! That hundreds of my nestboxes are nailed to AEP power poles across three counties and thousands of bluebirds are sitting on those same power lines near my boxes with 7,800 volts of electricity flowing between their toes looking for insects crawling on the ground below them! It amazes me that AEP went into my bank account yesterday and removed money from Texas and put it into their bank account in Columbus Ohio!

Whew! What was IN this coffee:-)) It must be time to quit my ramblings as another train is "whistling" through our town....I wonder what is on this train and where it all came from! I would imagine from a few miles up that humans look like a "bunch of ants" in a BIG hurry to go some place and do something! KK

From: bryan coffey [mailto:yeffoc_nayrb"at"yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 7:48 AM
Subject: brief intro

Hi All,

Out of boredom one day (and curiosity) I built a bluebird nest box from some plans I downloaded from the internet. I nailed the nest box to the fence in what seemed the ideal spot in my backyard just to see what would happen. Weeks went by and nothing. I began to have my doubts. But in late spring of 2000 I got my first nesting pair. Four little ones fledged a few weeks later and I have been hooked ever since. That was five years ago.

Over the past five years, I usually get one or two clutches per season. I have seen between 25-30 fledglings leave the box and I look forward to seeing what happens this spring.

I have attached a picture I took back in Jan '05. These three little fellows lit under my deck when the weather got really cold and stayed cold in East TN. These guys roosted (if that is the right term) there every night for at least 6 to 8 weeks and sometimes brought friends. As many as 10 at once! Enjoy.

Bryan in East TN

Bryan, since your's sounds like a success story so far, you may scratch your head at this advice. It would be best if you put your nestboxes on a smooth pole or a T post. They need to have a guard on the pole right underneath the nestbox. You can see the plans for the stovepipe guard at www.nabluebirdsociety.org on the Fact Sheets section. I feel sure you have climbing snakes and other predators like we do.

Also, the babies come back to the area where they were hatched and you surely need to put out more boxes. If you don't have room on your property, maybe some neighbors would let you put some on theirs, of course with their permission.

I wish you a great bluebirding season!

Evelyn Cooper
Delhi, LA
Louisiana Bayou Bluebird Society

Bryan,

Welcome! I lived in Murfreesboro TN for a couple of years, in the early
80's. At that time I wasn't into bluebirding, yet, but I still remember a lot of snakes in the area. I have friends still, living in Bell Buckle, and they have bluebirds nesting every season. They have a good sized property and good conditions for the blues. I would definitely install a guard on your pole, just to be safe!

My friends lived on the river and we were in their yard one day when I heard a splash in the water. I went to investigate and saw a snake, swimming. I looked up, and snakes were draped over the branches of the trees like tinsel at Christmas! It still gives me chills.

Happy birding!

Barbara in Cloverdale, CA

Thank you, Shawn.

I did a Google search on snakes in TN and there are 32 different species and four of them are poisonous. These are: Northern and Southern Copperhead (Agkistrodon contortix)Timber Rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus) Western Cottonmouth (Agkistrodon piscivorus) and Western Pigmy Rattlesnake (Sisturus miliarius).

Usually, it is the non-poisonous snakes that are the climbers that you have to worry about in the nestboxes, but KK has told us about finding a poisonous one in a nestbox one time.

Snakes are my number one predator, but I did get it corrected with the stovepipe guard. However, the other climbing predators can be just as deadly as Shawn says.

Evelyn Cooper
Delhi, LA
Louisiana Bayou Bluebird Society

With this particular box and predator guard, I am guessing that the snake was able to crawl between the pole and the guard. The guard on this box was a piece of metal flashing bent in half over the pole.

I don't, of course, know for sure that the predator was a snake, but the remains were characteristic of snake predation.

Rebecca J.
Columbia, MD

From: Tina Phillips [mailto:cbp6"at"cornell.edu]
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 9:54 AM
Subject: Tarantulas, snakes and cowbirds?

Tarantulas, snakes and cowbirds?
No, it is not the stuff of a bad birding movie, but it is what we've seen in the Nest Box Cams this past week. First, a Brown-headed Cowbird removed a Prothonotary Warbler egg and the next day, laid its own egg in the cavity. We are hoping the egg does not hatch since the warbler eggs were already one week into incubation. Then in Texas, nature surprised us once again when out of the blue a large snake (I think an Eastern Rat Snake) got inside the 15' high box and constricted one of the owlets while the other five owlets looked on. Well, actually one of the owlets appears to be trying to fight the snake off with its talons. At this point we still can't tell if the snake managed to actually eat the young or if it just killed it and then left the scene for fear of being eaten itself. We do know that one of the chicks was lying dead on the floor, and then consumed by its siblings. That same day, we captured an image of a large tarantula in the vacant Texas bluebird box. And who says nature isn't exciting?

To end on a happy note, four of six Eastern Bluebirds hatched early this morning. We expect the remaining two eggs to hatch any moment!

Enjoy the views!
http://www.birds.cornell.edu/birdhouse2/nestboxcam/

Tina Phillips
The Birdhouse Network
Cornell Lab of Ornithology

Hi Tina,

Would you let the List know if there was a snake guard in place on the Barn Owl box that was attacked by a snake, and if so, what kind, so we will know that snakes can get by one. Also, if there was not a snake guard in place before, is there one now?

Thank you,
Donna in Marlborough, CT

ps--incredible photos on the Nestcam of this attack. The owlets are fascinating.

From: Tina Phillips [mailto:cbp6"at"cornell.edu]
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: Tarantulas, snakes and cowbirds?

The box where the snake got in sits atop several ceiling rafters of an open air hangar, about 15-20' high. If a snake wanted to get into the box, there is no way to protect all access points, as there are just too many. However, the cam host has greased all the poles that the support the hangar from the ground. Personally, I think most people who provide boxes for birds of prey such as owls, probably don't provide predator guards, as these birds are in fact, the predators. But, nature teaches us that even predators can be prey!

Hopefully the snake will not need another meal for a while, and if it does, maybe next time, the owlets instincts as predators, will kick in. We shall have to wait and see. But, the mission of the cam is to "observe and interpret the nesting behaviors of cavity-nesting birds and promote understanding of their breeding biology." It is not the mission of the Nest Box Cams to interfere with the natural processes that take place so that every nesting attempt has an unrealistic happy "Hollywood" ending. These cams are wonderful because they can convincingly educate people about the real hardships that nesting birds face, and hopefully enhance people's appreciation for nature in all its glory.

Tina Phillips

From: Megan Whitman [mailto:mlw57"at"cornell.edu]
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: Tarantulas, snakes and cowbirds?

Hi Donna,

Please refer to Tina's response to this question on the "Your Comments" portion of the site:
http://www.birds.cornell.edu/birdhouse2/nestboxcam/barn_owl_tx/tx_ba_comments

Scroll down to the bottom of the page to find her 'climbing snake' and 'predator guards for birds of prey' replies to comments made by
viewers.

Cheers,

Megan Whitman
Project Assistant

From: Autumn L. Kruer [mailto:autumnk"at"iglou.com]
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 1:28 AM

Subject: RE: Tarantulas, snakes and cowbirds?

Ewww. Can a predator guard not be put on the pole? We get wood ducks here on our pond and I’ve thought about putting a box up for them, too, and wondered if I did should I put predator guards on the pole like I do the bluebird boxes.

Autumn in Kentucky

From: Shawn [mailto:shawnee4"at"charter.net]
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: effects of a cold spring?

Hi!

My TRES finished their clutch of 5 May 15. I think when I checked today,
all had hatched (seems early, only 12 days, but I'm new at this--these are
my first TRES ever--what do the more seasoned TRES monitors think?). I'm
short, and need a taller "booster" to stand on when I check, I could hardly
see in, but felt with my fingers VERY gently, and felt a baby instead of an
egg. I only have the TRES in the one box.

I had 5 EABL eggs in a box at home, and 5 at the place I keep my horse. All
5 hatched and fledged (this week!) at home, only 2 at the barn hatched and
fledged (a couple weeks ago), leaving 3 unhatched eggs in the nest that were
still there when I cleaned out the box.

Shawn in Sevierville, TN

Shawn, the last thing I thought about before I went to sleep last night was you feeling in the nest that you could not see. When I was new at this, I would walk up to a box and open it right in my face. I would find bb babies gone and found out it was the work of a snake. One morning, I found the snake all cozy in the box after snacking on four babies. I begin to think about how I was not being as careful as I should be, (big time). I was so shook up, my husband took a cane and nailed a nail slanted upward in the end of it and I would attach it to the bottom of the door of the nestbox to open it. It placed me about 3 ft. from the box.

I am not fussing at you, but do be careful as I bet you've got snakes too.
There's been an occasional report of a poisonous one in there.

Evelyn Cooper
Delhi, LA

P.S. I forgot to mention that we did install stovepipe predator guards, but I was still "gun shy" and was careful about opening the boxes.

Evelyn,

I love to tell these stories on my wife.
I warned her many times about looking before she reached.
One day, she was removing a wren nest from a top opening EABL box.
The opening was just above her head. As she reached in, pulling out sticks, she felt something that did not feel like a stick. Turned out to be a small harmless snake. I was not there to hear the scream, she hates the sight of worms so she really dislikes snakes.
She said she fell backward only to see the snake peak over the top of the box.
She still checks and cleans boxes but now all of our boxes now open from the side and are at eye level.
We place our boxes on telescoping poles.

She also loves to decorate her garden with found rock. I warned her to turn the rock over with a stick before picking it up. One day she picked up a large flat rock only to find a nest of very young copperheads. We had a lenghty dicsussion over what to do with them and I ended up replacing the rock

What was the line on that cop show something like "be careful out there"

Torry and Bluebird List,

I have a trail of 28 nestboxes where my main worries are fire ants and snakes. Tanglefoot has been an economical and easy solution to the ant problem. However, I have had snakes go around various guards like inverted, dangling buckets, telescoping poles, and "thorned" poles. My thorn poles are EMT poles wrapped with strips of hardware cloth so that there are .375 inch "thorns" located every half inch horizontally and every one inch vertically. I assume the sakes climb the thorn pole by lightly griping the thorns enough to get traction, but not tightly enough to puncture their
skin. To date, my most successful guard has been the greased EMT pole.
But grease is unsightly, messy, and needs to be removed and replaced several times a year.

I have put seven Kingston baffles into use this year, but I suspect that within a year's time, the snakes will find a way to get above them, possibly by climbing them like they climb smooth, vertical surfaces. If the snakes cannot figure out the Kingston baffles, then the baffles are the solution.
But, if snakes do figure the Kingston's out, then the messy grease must be the solution.

Ever so often, there are pictures of snakes essentially going straight up a smooth vertical surface. One such picture is on page 56 of the "The Bluebird Monitor's Guide." How do the snakes accomplish this feat?

I have wondered if the snakes are able to press their bellies flat against a smooth vertical surface and then "suck their tummies in" to create a vacuum between them and the surface. Then by stretching part of their bodies upward while they are holding on to the surface via the vacuum with the rest of their bodies, they able to climb a slick vertical surface. Is this plausible? Does anyone know how snakes accomplish this feat?

Anyone's comments and thoughts about how snakes climb would be appreciated.

Dan Hanan
35 miles SE of Austin, TX

rat snakes will go right up the kingston guard. the seam in the pipe allows
easy access. I belive the best solution is a 3' square piece of hardware
cloth, the same as what is used in the kingston guard.
ron, this in no way is meant to lessen the importance of your guard......it
works for what it is designed to do. snakes are another problem.
Phil Berry

From: bookfanaticef-bluebird"at"yahoo.com [mailto:bookfanaticef-bluebird"at"yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: How do snakes climb smooth surfaces?

Dan,
When snakes are a problem in cavity nests, such as nest boxes on poles, the culprits are most usually rat, corn, or fox snakes (all are in Genus Elaphe--there are several species, subspecies, and color forms, many very colorful & pretty). Texas has several members in that Genus, including the "Texas" Rat Snake, which is an absolutely beautiful golden yellow with black diamond/blotch markings (I saw 2 in Louisana last summer).

Rat snakes in cross-section are shaped like a "loaf of bread"--their bellies are flat, and meet their sides at an almost 90 degree angle, unlike most snakes which are almost circular. They therefore have much more surface area in contact with whatever surface they are on. Like all snakes, their belly scales, which overlap and therfore don't necessarily stay flat against the skin, are designed to grip any small irregularity in a surface in order to move. But because of their rather unique shape, rat snakes are superb climbers, and can go straight up a tree. And what looks far too smooth to us may be just rough enough for a snake. Racers and Rough Green Snakes are also good climbers, but they and most other climbing snakes that I can think of usually need a bit more structure, like tree branches, etc, though a wooden nest box pole might be rough enough for them to climb.

Rat snakes are such good climbers and therefore, good nest predators, that one species in particular has evolved to deal with them (at least, part of it is most likely becuase of rat snakes). Red-cockaded Woodpeckers, which are endangered, drill sap wells around their nest cavities, which are always in living pines old enough to suffer from diseases that cause the heartwood to be soft & easier to excavate. These sap wells ooze out around the cavity, and when a snake encounters it, they don't like the sticky sap, and try to get out of it, consequently losing traction and falling off the tree. It doesn't always work, but usually it does if the sap is fresh. Pretty neat, huh?
Elizabeth F
Gainesville, FL

On Wed 1 Jun 2005, it was posted:
> I read that if you put "moth balls" around the base of the pole below
> the BB house that a snake would be deterred from climbling. Has
> anyone tried this? ...

I've read the same thing on various bird lists over the years. Have NOT tried it, but...

> ... And, has anyone else heard of this?

I've read this every year on various forums.
I've heard of folks who do it regularly. Moth balls do NOT deter a snake from climbing. One theory is that the odor of the mothballs masks the odor of the birds. Rat snakes find food by odor, sensing with their tongues. Chemicals in mothballs--paradichlorobenzene or naphthalene or both--aren't harmful to cold blooded snakes and don't block a snakes ability to smell bird.
Aren't healthy for warm blooded humans or birds although you'd have to lock yourself or a bird in a closet with moth balls to get a concentra- tion of fumes high enough to do real damage.
Moth balls are quite toxic if consumed and a real hazard around small children since they resemble jelly beans or candy to young kids. I know of no scientific evidence that moth balls help birds in any way but there's a potential for harm, especially with small children about.

Folks have tried other odor masks like Vicks Vap-O-Rub on poles and sprinkling cedar chips about under nest boxes. ....

Please make your decisions based on science, actual experiments with controls, peer review and reproduceable results. Anecdotal stories must _NOT_ take the place of real research.
Concluding that doing something worked based on a small sample is neither valid nor scientific.

Some folks sprinkled moth balls around the poles on which their nestboxes were mounted. They experienced no snake predation in the years that they did so and so they concluded that the moth balls prevented snake predation. They posted their conclusion to a mail list or forum. Some others tried moth balls with similar results but some who spread moth balls lost eggs or nestlings to snakes.

I've read about people who put a ring of garden hose around nestbox poles. They believe that snakes won't cross a garden hose because the snake will think it's a larger snake and posted their theory to forums and email lists. Since they experienced no snake predation, they concluded that putting a circle of garden hose around the poles supporting their nestboxes must prevent snake predation.

Some folks who use predator (from captive fox and coyotes) urine (available from garden
centers) around their gardens to deter deer and raccoons decided to spray some around their nestboxes. There was no snake predation so those people concluded that predator urine deters snakes and wrote about it on birding lists.

Still other folks decided that humans are snake predators so they urinated on their nestbox's poles. No snake predation for two years so it must work, right?

WRONG! That's no more logical than my saying that I didn't use any snake protection for years and didn't lose a nest to a snake, so putting up no snake protection will protect nestboxes from snakes. Huh? I was lucky when I first put up some birdhouses many years ago.
Luck didn't last. Sprinkling moth balls or cedar chips or urine at the base of poles makes as much sense as doing nothing makes sense. A lot of people who don't use a snake guard don't lose nests to snakes. But there is no cause => effect between not using snake guards and not losing nests to snakes nor is there a cause => effect relationship between putting stuff on the ground or dancing the Hokey-Pokey around nestboxes three times a week and not losing or losing eggs or nestlings to snake predation.

Other things that I've read in the past year that don't work but were posted as "this worked for me" to email lists or forums that I read: Leaving porch or floodlights on; lots of photos of snakes climbing poles during the day can be found easily. Using 8' or 10'
poles rather than 5'; ask Purple Martin land- lords how easily a rat snake can climb a 16'
or 18' pole. I'm sure I'll think of more as soon as I send this email.

Bluebird Societies in many states, Audubon Societies, Conservation Organizations like the Purple Martin Conservation Association, the Cornell Lab or Ornithology, as well as independent researchers have done real scientific research using The Scientific Method. They take an idea--hypothesis--and then design experiments to test it. Peer review by other researchers in other areas verify the results of studies before they're published in journals.

WHAT DOES WORK: Although no perfect snake guard has been developed, there are proven ways of drastically reduce snake predation.

1) Small-diameter, smooth poles help, like the 'three minute post' described in http://www.wnrmag.com/stories/2001/apr01/bluebird.htm
Using half inch conduit results in far fewer nests lost to predation than wood or larger diameter metal poles. For folks with many nest- boxes on trails and a limited budget, far more birds were fledged than if metal T-posts or U- posts or wooden posts are used. There are more effective methods but those methods are far more expensive and time consuming. Polishing and greasing a narrow diameter pole works, too, but only if the pole is regularly cleaned and regreased before the old grease collects dust and/or hardens in the sun enough to let the snake easily climb through it.

2) The 'Kingston Guard' works well, described in http://www.birds.cornell.edu/birdhouse/bhbasics/guardsto.pdf
It is proven to stop most snakes. The Kingston stovepipe baffle is the standard for predator protection many Bluebird Societies, including my local society.

3) The 'Krueger Snake Trap' is also effective, http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/nestbox/hksnake.htm
Bird netting is both inexpensive and effective, especially when combined with a Kingston baffle.

4) Charged electric fence wire alternated with ground wires surrounding the pole is perhaps the most effective but it's expensive, requires power near the poles, and isn't recommended if there are children around.

Personally, I use Kingston baffles AND Krueger traps on my Purple Martin poles. My nestboxes are mounted on 1/2" conduit with Krueger net traps. I also grease the poles so I can see evidence of attempts to climb the poles and to deter ants. So far, so good, but I know that there are reports of snakes that have gotten around all of these measures, too.

>From personal experience, I've seen snakes
slither along and cross a garden hose, possibly to hide from predators like hawks. I had to remove a Virginia black rat snake from a closet where she curled up on the same shelf with a box of moth balls. I found a gorgeous golden corn snake nestled in a bale of cedar chips (scared the everlovin's out of me when I reached in for a handfull of cedar chips). I removed a black snake from a nestbox with over an inch of cedar chips in the bottom of the nestbox; poor critter couldn't get back out the hole with five eggs in its belly. I've cut quite a few snakes out of bird netting, also known as Krueger snake trap stuff. Moth balls and other smelly stuff won't protect eggs and nestlings from snakes.

I'll end my latest harangue by saying that snakes are good. They eat rats and mice and bugs. I like having them in my garden and barn where they control rodents much better than feral cats which are far more dangerous to our birds than snakes. Scientists agree. See http://www.uga.edu/srelherp/ecoview/Eco29.htm
Be glad if you have snakes around... but let's keep the beneficial slithery critters out of nestboxes by using methods that are proven to actually work.

Take care,

R J 'Tree' Greenwood
Catlett VA

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas
Tree Greenwood presented an EXCELLENT post on "myths" of snake repellants. I doubt if there is ANY safe chemical that you could use to "hide or mask" the smell of food from a snake. Our Beagle got sprayed with a pair of skunks again two weeks ago right in his face. The stench was horrible all around the neighborhood but within two hours Snoopy was happily trailing cottontail rabbits again as if the skunk scent was nothing more than perfume!

Jack Finch tested all types of "obstacles" with captive Black Rat Snakes in his snake test pit in Bailey North Carolina. As many others have mentioned different species of snakes are better at climbing than others. The scales on the belly of rat snakes are used like very strong fingernails.

Jack found that if you took a sheet of perfectly smooth glass then cut or scored the glass with a diamond cutter every 6" horizontally that these few scratches in the glass would allow a rat snake to climb up a four foot high vertical wall of glass.

Jack found out that on steel or PVC pipe if you took a silk handkerchief and gently rubbed it down the pipe that if it snagged on ANYTHING once every six inches that the snakes would be able to climb up the object!

Hardware cloth spikes, sharp carpet tack strips have all been used to try to stop predators but these creatures are used to raiding bird nests in the thorniest of trees and bushes. Fox, coon and opossums feed on blackberries at night in these thorn factories! The snakes seem to be able to shoot right through blackberries due to their hard scales and the angle the scales are attached to their body.

After years and years of working with his black rat snakes, Jack Finch mounts all of his "normal" nestboxes hanging on 1" electrical metallic conduit (EMT/steel pipe). He protects against snakes with the Harry Krueger type polypropylene 3/4" mesh bird netting and out of 70 nestboxes on his farm, in perfect snake habitat he catches about 3 snakes a year in these traps.

I recommend using the Ron Kingston stovepipe guard and then above this attach the Krueger Snake trap as a check to see if the guard is squeaky clean and still working against my snakes:-)) KK

Phil Berry wrote: rat snakes will go right up the kingston guard. the seam in the pipe allows easy access. I belive the best solution is a 3' square piece of hardware cloth, the same as what is used in the kingston guard.

Have others experienced this? My understanding has been that the Kingston guard works because snake follows the scent up through the stovepipe. If the guard is mounted well above the ground, do snakes, in practice, go up the outside of the guard instead of invariably going up the inside?

Here in MD, we have rat snakes, but it's a very minor problem, compared to Gulf states. All our boxes have either Kingston guards or are telescoping. Still, I'm curious if others have had the experience of having a snake "solve" the Kingston guard.

Paul Kilduff
Trail at Oregon Ridge Park, Cockeysville MD

[reply to post where someone saw three snakes over a 23 year period.] Three snakes in 23 years:-)) Shawn and I counted five snakes in five hundred feet while checking our birdhouse gourds yesterday! I should have had a camera!

One was a beauty of a poisonous cotton mouth moccasin. We walked the line of gourds checking sprinkler heads to see if any were plugged up and coming back the "myth" about snakes not crossing a hose was burst by this poisonous snake as here was a 24" long dark black snake just crossing over a 1"
diameter black plastic pipe. Perfect sun, perfect location and perfect fearlessness in this snake....He ended up pushing me well off the path as he wanted to go back home under some large plant buckets behind me....He did not coil up, he would not strike but I was NOT going to let him crawl between my feet! KK

On Fri 3 Jun 2005 at 19:46, Paul Kilduff <pkilduff"at"usconnex.net> wrote:
> Have others experienced this? My understanding has been that the
> Kingston guard works because snake follows the scent up through the
> stove- pipe. If the guard is mounted well above the ground, do
> snakes, in practice, go up the outside of the guard instead of
> invariably going up the inside?

Hi, Paul.

What do you consider 'well off the ground'? See http://www.purplemartin.org/forumarchives/archive/snake.jpg

I personally saw a snake go up inside a guard, find its way blocked, then coil around the pole and try to go up the outside of an 8" diameter by 24" long stovepipe baffle (didn't make it).

A snake got around a Kingston guard made of 6"
diameter by 24" long light-weight PVC mounted under a Purple Martin house about 16' up. I don't know how but it was in the house.

Of course, these are just my observations and my opinions. Everyone should also read http://nature.gardenweb.com/forums/load/bluebird/msg0508052415973.html
where it was posted that 'the perfect pole predator guard; nothing gets past it' is a 24" long piece of 4" diameter PVC with a 3/4"
pine plug in one end.

In my opinion, real 8" diameter stovepipe is better but only if it is 30" or more long and is kept clean and smooth and it is installed so it tips. I wipe mine with oil to delay rust and corrosion. Even galvanized metal eventually rusts and, as Phil pointed out, rust or dirt in the seam can provide an easy route up the pipe for a snake.

In my opinion, the commercial baffles like the 'Audubon Pole Mount Torpedo Baffle' that's made of 'unbreakable textured powder coated steel'
that's less than 16" long and just 6" diameter and the similar S&K pole guard, either for about $20, are just about worthless as snake guards. They're just too small and too rough.

I've seen and have heard of Kingston traps that fail to stop a snake often enough that I now add Krueger bird net snake traps to my poles. Now I get to cut snakes out of bird netting rather than removing them from nestboxes [grumble].

> Here in MD, we have rat snakes, but it's a very minor problem,
> compared to Gulf states.

Snakes are a relatively minor problem here, too, compared to the problems reported by folks down south. Before I knew about predator guards, I went for years without losing a nest. Then eggs and hatchlings mysteriously disappeared until I checked a box and found a snake so fat with a belly full of eggs that it couldn't get back out the hole. Mystery solved.

My choices were to accept occasional snake predation or try to do what I could to prevent it. Guess it's obvious what I chose.

> All our boxes have either Kingston guards or are telescoping.

'_OR_' telescoping? A taller pole adds only a few seconds to a snake's trip up to a meal. If your group depends on a bit of added height for protection, I can send you links to hundreds of posts by Purple Martin landlords who lost entire colonies to a snake at the top of 15 to 20' tall telescoping poles.

> Still, I'm curious if others have had the experience of having a snake
> "solve" the Kingston guard.

If it seems like I'm putting down Kingston guards, I'm not. I use them myself. I had _A_ snake, one, get around what I now consider an undersized Kingston guard. I saw _A_ snake, one, trying to get around a proper size guard and it failed to get over the guard.

The Kingston guard is the 'gold standard' for ground predator protection. It is proven to greatly reduce predation by not just snakes but other ground critters like racoons. As far as I know, there is no perfect protection from snake predation...

** WAIT! Someone found it and posted about it in the GardenWeb Bluebird forum! ... _NOT!_

In my opinion, the Kingston guard is great and will stop most snakes. Kingston guards that are Larger and longer are better for stopping big and long snakes. Even medium size snakes can bypass a 4" PVC guard, easily coiling around the 12.6" circumference when the snake finds that it can't climb straight up. Six inch PVC is much better; even a big rat snake can't easily coil around its 28.3" circumference. Keep it clean and smooth. A 24" length of pipe should be the minimum; 30" is better (the standard 3' length of stovepipe with the tapered part snipped off).

Take care,

R J 'Tree' Greenwood
Catlett VA

my rat snakes love moth balls.......or at least they are not at all deterred by them.

Phil Berry

From: mrtony8 [mailto:philip.berry"at"mchsi.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: Snakes in nest boxes

this is not all related to memory, I don't think. Snakes have "snake highways" through their territory, just like we do, and they patrol the territory. Their sense of smell tells them when birds are present in one of the boxes. They seem to be clever enough to allow the babies to reach 12-14 days of age before getting them, at least in my experience. Perhaps they smell the nest when fledging time comes near and can tell the difference between young and old nestlings. Invariably when i lose nests to a rat snake, the fledging date was very near. Often we don't know positively if they fledged or were eaten, unless you SEE them fledge you can't take it to the bank.

Phil Berry
Gulf Breeze, Florida

When it is almost time to leave the nest mom and dad do not do the house work anymore. I think this is how the snakes know.

Maynard Sumner
Flint, MI

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas
I agree with Phil and Maynard that the snakes can scent dirty nests easier.
Ok Phoebes, Barn Swallows, Robins and such do not clean their nests. The young eject the feces over the edge and down the wall or tree trunk or piled on the ground creating a real mess below the nest.

ANY predator should know that an active nest is right above this spot. I made a trip to a chicken farm and returned with buckets of bird droppings:-) I went through our woods creating the impression of bird nests under all of the trees....It will take the snakes and coons weeks to climb every tree.
You cannot mask the scent of a bird nest, I wonder if you can confuse them with bird droppings of a different species. Probably NOT!!!

One of our phoebes built a nest under my bridge directly over the creek so that the bird droppings fell into the water. I believe a certain percentage of birds just get lucky raising their young in spite of the predators. KK

On Sun 5 Jun 2005 at 17:47, Trish Culpepper <trishkcully"at"earthlink.net> wrote:
> So, Tree...regarding your post about Woodpecker houses and placing
> them on trees or wooden posts....aren't they subject to predators
> attacking the nests that way?

Yes. But Trish, I doubt anyone can convince a woodpecker to nest in a wooden box isolated on a metal pole in an open area. Eastern Bluebirds and Tree Swallows readily accept the unnatural boxes that we provide and tolerate the banging of tipping predator baffles. They're becoming another synanthropic species, depending on us for nest boxes to ensure their survival.

Carolina Chickadees and a few other species will also use Bluebird boxes mounted on metal poles out in the open but only if other, more natural cavities are unavailable. In my experience, most species of our native cavity-nesting birds won't use nestboxes on metal poles out in the open. To try to host them means putting nest boxes where those species will to nest.

My White Breasted Nuthatches rarely venture out of our Maple trees except in mid-winter and only if we don't keep the suet feeder in the trees filled. Then the WBNU will visit the elevated platform feeder for just long enough to snatch a nut or berry. They've never been to a Bluebird nestbox even though there are a few withing sight of the trees. I have small nest boxes in those trees but the nuthatches don't like and won't use hanging wren boxes. They pick natural woodpecker holes from which they are invariably driven out by European Starlings and English House Sparrows [grumble].

So I'm trying a new style, attached high in the trees against a large limb or main truck:
http://www.50birds.com/images/misidemount1.jpg
The small entry hole should keep HOSP and EUST out. So far, no success in getting the WBNU into that box but the wood was new. I often find that native birds prefer old, weathered boxes. Maybe next season? Woodpeckers choose trees, too, although I've also seen them make a nest hole in an abandoned, deteriorating utility pole and I've heard of them hollowing out tall fence posts.

Are they vulnerable to predators in the trees?
Yes. But if they won't nest where I want them to and where I can help to protect them, then I need to put up nestboxes where they want to nest... and that's in the trees, often large, old trees that will be very hard to protect. A House Wren may predate the Nuthatch nest or a snake may find it. If so, that's nature. At least I can provide a home safer from exotics that have evicted the Nuthatches from natural cavities.

http://open-mind.org/Image/Serenity.gif

Take care,

R J 'Tree' Greenwood
Catlett VA

A predator guard question:

I found a snake (black rat snake) in one of my nestboxes today, relaxing after apparently lunching on the 5 baby HOWRs that had been living there.

The snake is entitled to its food, and HOWRs don't need our protection, but I am concerned that the snake was able to get past the predator guard on the box.

These are nestboxes put up by our county Rec and Parks. The predator guard for each box consists of a piece of metal about 2 feet long that is folded over each side of the pole and attached. Visualize a stovepipe guard that is flattened around the pole. (I tried to find a picture on the Internet but have been unable to.)

These are, on the whole, effective guards. This is the first instance of snake predation I've had in my several years of nestbox monitoring. But obviously something went wrong this time. Does anyone have any experience with what guard characteristics are necessary for effectively preventing snake predation?

Thanks for your help,

Rebecca J.
Columbia, Maryland

Try this site. I found numerous ways to deter snakes on the June '05
newsletter. http://www.labayoubluebirdsociety.org/

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant Texas
A raccoon guard was used back in the 1950's that consisted of two flat sheets of sheet metal bolted or pop riveted together in a "sandwich" formation around small nestbox mounting poles. It varied in height and width but was designed ONLY to stop a raccoon from climbing up to the bottom of the guard and being tall enough to prevent the raccoon from reaching up to the top edge and pulling itself up and over the guard.

These guards were about 12" wide and 24" tall as I recall. Raccoons soon learned to grasp the outer edges and climb up and over the guards. The guards were changed to about 16" wide and they found that as long as the coon could get it's fingers over the edge on each side that these "smart"
coons could use the opposing force and climb right up and over these guards.
I saw photo's of coons stretched out to the max climbing up and over these types of sandwich guards.

They used this type sandwich guard to try to save sheet metal. In tests using 36" wide "cone" guards around poles where the sheetmetal guards was 18" out beyond the edge of the pole they found that some large raccoons could grasp the edge of the guard and go up and over a 36" cone. They increased the cone to 42" diameter and again when protecting hundreds of wood duck boxes there were coons that began getting past this size guard.
They then began making only two guards out of a 4 foot by 8 foot sheet of metal and these 48" diameter guards mounted over the pole would stop raccoons. Jack Finch in his Black Rat snake tests found that 72" long black rat snakes could cross over these huge sheet metal guards in less that 2 minutes and enter a bluebird nestbox!

Snakes on the other hand wrap around the pole below the guard, stretch their body up and over the guard, wrap around the pole above the guard and go right up the pole to the nestbox. At our last bluebird program for the Wild Turkey Federation, Maxey Kirkley brought a Black Rat Snake that was about 72" long. It could wrap around his arm and stretch out horizontally over three feet to reach another person! This snake could easily go up and over a 48" tall perfectly smooth, vertical flat guard! This was NOT a trained snake as he picked it up off the highway only 4 days before the event!!

90% of guards used on poles are placed too close to the ground! I grew up on a mink farm in Ohio. They are a large clumsy weasel with short dumpy legs but to keep them in the mink yard it takes a 48" tall fence with smooth sheetmetal around the top 16" to keep them from JUMPING over the top of the fence! It was common for fox to jump over this fence to reach the mink food at night. Raccoons easily climbed this fence or jumped to the top rail. I don't know how high a coon could jump if it really wanted to! KK

From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: snake predation

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas
The best raccoon guard will be Ron Kingston's 8" diameter Stove Pipe guard. It must swing freely and it must be above the height a hungry, determined raccoon can jump. I personally think the average raccoon can probably jump as high as the average cat can. Coons can run at top speed for miles ahead of a pack of hounds.

Many animals learn how to climb up and over guards when they have enough motivation. During nesting season for the cavity nesters is also nesting season for all the other birds and it is easier for coons to feast on frogs, fish, duck eggs, June Bugs, blackberries, corn, even road kills (you get the idea) than to climb up and over a guard. Just because you have a guard on a box does not mean that a predator actually tried to climb over it!

Snakes on the other hand can often climb up and over most commonly used guards and you need to use Harry Krueger's Mesh Snake Trap above whatever guard you use and believe works well for you. The snakes will then be trapped between the guard and the nestbox and you can determine what kind of a snake problem you have.

MANY Purple Martin landlords have used the mesh traps and trapped snakes that climbed a smooth martin house pole that had a 30 gallon trash can inverted on the pole to stop raccoons. The snakes had gone up and over the outsides of the 30 gallon plastic or metal trash cans on their way to the martin colony. These trash cans were mounted 8 feet or more off of the ground. Raccoons can climb up and over inverted five gallon buckets. MANY of these guards may work fine on your small trail for many years but it only takes a single night for a talented coon or opossum to ruin your day!

Remember that more baby birds are probably lost the first week out of the nest than the whole month they spend as an egg and then a young bird inside an unguarded nestbox. It is just that we see more often the "empty" nest but we seldom EVER see the actual killing in the nestbox. Same goes for the deaths of birds outside the box! Most small birds are eaten whole by the predator leaving almost no evidence. A raccoon probably needs about 3 pounds of baby birds (or other food) a night but I have yet to see one actually catch and eat anything other than dog food! KK

From: elizabeth.young"at"spotplus.com [mailto:elizabeth.young"at"spotplus.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:04 AM
Subject: Re: snake predation

So, a tall slick pole, 8" Stove Pipe Guard, then the Harry Krueger Snake Trap, then the nestbox. Right? This is going to look like a spaceship. Especially if you put a spooker on it after the first egg is laid!

I wish someone made all these things and sold them to make it easier for tool-challenged people like me. I have everything but the Harry Krueger Snake Trap. Got the plans for it yesterday off of a state bluebird website but like I said I'm not very smart with stuff like this and the plans looked a little sketchy. Where can the materials be purchased?

Elizabeth
Midlothian TX

I’ve read some posts that you should remove snakes that get tangled up in the netting type baffles – if nothing else, because the birds might abandon the nest.

How DO you get them out? Is it possible to do it without euthanizing them?

Bet from CT

And one would want to remove them, if possible. Not a easy way to perish, I'd imagine, tangled in a Krueger trap.

Diane in Maryland

No, you can release them without killing them. I have not had to do it, but I understand that you wear gloves and free the snake by cutting a few squares of the mesh, then release it somewhere. I have been told you must hold the snake firmly, they are quite upset.

Kate Arnold
Paris, Texas

Oh, Bet, you are asking the wrong person to ask me. I don't use traps made of nets. I do use the stovepipe guard and it has been very successful for me. If I should have one to get past it, I would install the 36 x 36 piece of hardware cloth above it. I just couldn't handle dealing with a snake in a
trap.

Yes, I've read those posts and also if you do not remove the snake from the trap in this terrible hot sun, it could die.

Evelyn Cooper, President
Delhi, LA

As the person who originally started this discussion by asking for help after having found a black rat snake in one of my nestboxes, I have to say that I'm appalled that anyone would kill a snake (under most circumstances), or use a method of protecting nestboxes that would be lethal to a snake. In my state (Maryland), it is against the law to intentionally kill native wildlife without a permit (http://www.dnr.state.md.us/wildlife/snakes.asp).
Whether or not a particular snake is protected by law, snakes are valuable predators who help maintain the balance of the ecosystem. (As most of us know, they are particularly helpful in keeping the rodent population in check.)

Rebecca J.
Columbia, Maryland

Bet,
Iv'e read where it is recommended that you remove them by cutting the snake away, not harming them, be sure to use really heavy gloves, and a pair of sizzors....
and as my father always told me, never take your eyes off of the lion, because when you do he will bite you.
of course he was refering to power tools at the time, but it seems to fit in this situation...

remember some snakes are protected as well.....

http://www.bestofbbml.audubon-omaha.org/snake.htm

George

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas
The mesh trap is made from Ross's Garden netting. It is about a 3/4"X3/4" square mesh size. There are multiple companies that make similar material to be used to cover strawberry beds, vegetables and fruit trees to prevent birds from reaching the fruit that humans want to eat. It is a polypropylene material. This basically is a gill net design and snakes have scales that face backward to protect their bodies as they push through thorns or they have this scaly body armor of sorts. When they push through the net and decide to back up their scales get caught in the netting. You need to use a pair of scissors to cut them free like others have suggested and wear heavy leather welding gloves or use heavy gloves used to handle mink.

This plastic netting traps snakes where ever it is used in the environment for years to come just like discarded plastic fish nests in the worlds oceans! If you cover up strawberry plants you probably will trap snakes if they are crossing through your berry patch. Same goes for using this netting in trees as tree climbing snakes will get into it. Lay it on the ground in your back yard and you will trap snakes if they are commonly seen there! This netting is now used to bag fruit at the grocery store and discarding these bags will trap any snake that enters the garbage or tries to crawl through this discarded product. Same goes for glue board traps used for rodents.

I personally believe that bluebirds do not need to be protected at every nestbox but this is a valuable trap when used to protect Purple Martin colonies and rare birds like Red Cockaded Woodpeckers or Protonotary Warblers. It can also be used in the area near endangered species that are a common food for snakes.

On the bluebird trail the mesh trap should ONLY be used above a guard that is considered snake proof!!! We often have to choose between harming one rare species to protect another rare species! In most areas snakes are more valuable to the environment than a bluebird is! Experts say that trapping a snake and carrying it miles away creates a VERY dangerous situation for the re-located snake as it loses it's hunting grounds and is placed in a new snake filled environment with a new pecking order where it will be at a distinct disadvantage.

I don't know of anyone that would allow or watch a snake eat "their" baby bluebirds one by one which is a natural need of the snake...Everything we do today, like throw out a mesh bag in the berry patch can affect some other living creature years from now. Research with rubber snakes placed on a highway reveals that most humans will attempt to kill every snake they see with the tires of their car. Almost no one will back up or stop to "save" the snake while MANY will stop and back up to be sure they "got it" the first time! I think this is called "human" nature. KK

How does one attach the 36x36 cloth above the Kingston guard? Is it just a square pc of 36x36 that you slide down over the pole and then it sits on the guard?

Two of my boxes, protected by 8" Kingston guards, were predated this season. I think a large snake must have bypassed the guard. Snakes are my biggest problem (aside from wrens). Thanks.

Charlene Anchor, Illinois

Yes, from what I read it fits on top of the guard. You would have to take the nestbox off and place it there. It would be a little more difficult to monitor, but worth the trouble if you are having snake problems. Thank goodness, I have never had to use it.

Evelyn Cooper

...

Bet, grip the snake firmly behind its head so that it can't twist around and bite (but don't be too frightened because the bite of a rat snake hurts less than a paper cut). Then take gardening scissors and snip the netting that's holding the snake working from the head to the tail. The snake will want support and curl around your arm. Once free, put your arm close to the ground and release the critter's head.
It'll go quickly, not bothering to try to turn and bite; it just wants to get away.

Take care,

R J 'Tree' Greenwood
Catlett VA

Thanks for all the info on snakes! Just to clarify, I wasn’t SURE you COULD get the snakes out of the net type baffle without euthanizing them – I didn’t mean to imply that the snakes should be killed!

Bet from CT

A snake, I assume it was a Texas rat snake, got my last nest of the season baby Bluebirds; they were one or two days away from fledging at the time of previous monitoring. The nestbox was mounted on a 6 foot high, greased, 1.5 inch diameter EMT pole. The box had a second entrance hole on the back wall where the babies may have been able to escape. The snake left a 1.5 inch wide greasy trail up to the front entrance hole, grease inside the box, and grease in various other places.

This nestbox was made earlier this year with the Texas heat in mind. It had an attic space (or a double roof with space in between), which had 0.625 inch vent spanning the front and back sides of the box. The box also had two 0.625 inch ventilation slots, one above the door and the other on the opposite back wall just below the ceiling. It appears from the grease, that the snake went through attic vents from front to back and maybe through the vents above the door, as well as going through the front entrance hole. A thought as I write this: maybe the babies had fledged and the snake was hunting everywhere, including the attic, for them. There have been several times in the past where a snake has climbed a nestbox pole days after the babies have fledged

This predator snake (or snakes) has learned to climb greasy EMT poles this nesting season, but so far, he has not learned to climb a greasy 4 inch plastic pipe. A snake went up a greased EMT and around an inverted 5 gallon bucket and another went up and into a Kingston baffle, but not around it.
For the snake, a 4 inch plastic pipe must be a more difficult climb than an EMT climb. It is obvious that next season, something else should be done, like using Kingston baffles on all poles and perhaps greasy 4 inch poles.

From the 1.5 inch greasy trail up to the box entrance, I would guess this
last snake would be bigger than an inch in diameter. But could a snake of that size, or bigger, squeeze though the 0.625 inch high ventilation slot?

Dan Hanan
35 miles SE of Austin, TX

From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: Another snake problem

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas
Normally a snake that eats baby bluebirds just about to fledge from inside the nestbox and the box has 1&1/2" round entrance holes then the snake will be staying in the box for a day or two while it digests the baby birds to the point it can escape back out of the round hole. The colder the temperatures the slower digestive juices work and the longer the snake will remain in the nestbox after eating LARGE baby birds. Eggs or young birds less than about 8 days old or just a single large baby bird will not stop a snake from leaving the nestbox through an entrance hole.

If the snake had eaten the baby birds then it would have been days before it could have crawled through the 5/8" ventilation slots. It seems to me the snake scented the old nest or simply was back making rounds of it's territory, checking out cavities that in the past provided food and blundered through the grease. When it found the empty nest it began serious efforts to remove the grease from it's skin scraping off much of the grease by squeezing through the ventilation slots. (My son Shawn is an inexperienced mechanic and yesterday he scraped grease and oil off his hands on his pants! He is NOW experienced!)

I don't think snakes learn to avoid grease if they are hungry any more than some dogs will avoid a skunk after being sprayed. Snakes encounter hydrocarbons everytime they cross a highway. They also encounter hydrocarbons every time they encounter weed killer sprayed on fence lines or along power lines/pipe lines. They also run into hydrocarbons where home owners sprayed paint or insecticides in their yards or where farmers spray their crops. Grease applied to mounting poles allows you to track what predator went up the pole and what they did when they got to the box. This lets you know you have a problem and how common it is.

4" PVC pile will stop "some" snakes "some" of the time but it will NOT stop ALL snakes ALL of the time! The larger diameter of a smooth mounting pole will stop smaller snakes that cannot constrict around the pole and inch their way to the nestbox. As PVC pipe ages in sunshine it slowly oxidizes losing that slick outer layer and will at some point become rough enough to allow predators to climb to the nestbox.

Jack Finch found that perfectly smooth 4" PVC pipe (test it by using a silk handkerchief rubbed up the surface of the pipe, if silk does not snag on bumps at all it is considered "smooth") with about a 36" ring of "sharp"
crushed masonry sand spread around the base of the PVC mounting pole would keep snakes from climbing the PVC. It seems that enough sharp sand would cling to the belly scales of the snakes to prevent their getting a grip on the PVC pipe. This only worked if the sand was kept dry, something we cannot duplicate for the entire nesting season at every nestbox.

Sharp masonry sand is mined where it was crushed either naturally or by machines and will have jagged edges and sharp angles on a majority of the grains of sand.

River masonry sand is mined/dredged from streams or ocean beaches where it has rolled and tumbled for thousands of miles and under a microscope the individual grains of sand will mostly be tiny smooth oval or nearly round grit. For high strength concrete or multi story masonry jobs you MUST use "Sharp" sand as the points and angles resist shear pressures when embedded in a cement, sand or gravel mix. Before "redi-mix" concrete mixes were available you used 35 shovels of "sharp" sand 15 shovels of "crushed" gravel and 7 shovels of Portland cement. A gallon of concrete mix around a metal mounting pole resists theft of the nestbox and mounting pole "Some" of the
time:-)) KK

... forest edges & snakes
This study was looking at reasons snakes choose the habitat they do. The 2 snakes in question were the black rat snake (prefers forests & eats 60% mammals & 40% birds) & the blue racer (prefers open areas & eats 40% mammals, 20% birds, & 40% other, like insects & reptiles). (They figured out the prey by dissecting snake scat.) These 2 snakes overlap in use of edge habitat & will share hibernacula. The guy who did the talk was the one who did the mammal trapping & the "fur in scat" IDing (you need a really good microscope)..
There were prey species in all habitats, & there was no relation between mammal biomass in a habitat & the snakes' selection of that habitat. They suspect that habitat choice is thermal related....

Torrey Wenger
Kalamazoo Nature Center
Kalamazoo, MI

From: rob barron [mailto:rebel1956"at"comcast.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 2:28 PM
Subject: Snakes

Please Help! While I’m waiting for the Gorilla glue to dry on some of my new nest boxes, I thought I’d log in and ask for some advice. I’m just a newby here and most of my experience has been in the northeast where housecats and raccoons are the biggest nest box predators. Other than those 4 legged nuisances, hypothermia, house sparrows and house wrens are the biggest problems with nest boxes in then northeast. Some of my new friends here have asked my advice about snake-proofing nest boxes and other than having to relocate a few garter snakes and a milk snake, I haven’t had to deal with snakes. Charlene and others have mentioned mixed success with Kingston predator guards.

I subscribe to a publication called Wildlife Control Technology geared toward nuisance wildlife control operators and it frequently has advertisements for various products to keep pigeons from roosting which are basically a glue on strip with sharp spikes protruding at various angles. They go by various names like Poly-Spike and Bird-Flite Spikes. I was wondering if anyone here has seen or heard of these products and what your thoughts are about them wrapped around a metal post to deter rat snakes and fox snakes. I’ve seen desert tortoises eat a prickly pear but I’ve never seen a rattlesnake climb a saguaro cactus. Just an idea.

Thanks,
Rob Barron-Woodstock, Georgia

From: mrtony8 [mailto:philip.berry"at"mchsi.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: Snakes

Try it and let us know if it works, We are always looking for new ideas. I have lost many clutches to my friend the rat snake. Old timers tell me that they CAN get long enough to "stand on their tails and look right into the box."

If this is true, then nothing we do can prevent predation by snakes. I can tell you they are smart enough to know when the babies are old enough to just about fledge before they get them, and they always get them all without leaving a sign. They will climb right over the Kingston guard, I have pics if you want them. I use a 36" square piece of hardware cloth, cut square, mounted on the pole about a foot below the opening. I don't think I have had problems with this setup. This is in addition to the Kingston Guard, and Ron, this is no kick on your guard, it works for everything else.

Research the rat snake, it will make your day. We have the gray rat snake here. In any event, I usually get first clutches fledged before the snakes bother us.

Phil Berry
Gulf Breeze, Florida

Rob,

For two years, I used what I called a "thorn" pole as protection against the Texas Rat snake. They learn how to climb the pole the second year.

My thorn pole had a sharp 3/8" long steel point located every 1/2" horizontally and every 1.25" vertically.

I have also tried greased 1.5" diameter pipes for mounting poles. The snakes also learned how to climb these in the second and third year of their use.

Yesterday, I installed 13 Kingston baffles in preparing for the 2006 season. Several of these were installed around and above the thorns of a thorn pole. Perhaps the combination of the two will work.

Incidentally, the weather today was a night time low of 35 degrees and a daytime high of 85. Out of 27 nestboxes, I found three nests already started.

Dan Hanan
35 miles SE of Austin, TX

Good evening everyone,

I was trading emails with the supplier of solar powered “bird tracks” that he thought would be effective repelling snakes from climbing a pole. This was his reply to my question about how much this product might cost.

“Rob, Please give me a call so I can have your phone number, and discuss your multi-snake problem and pricing of our product. How many posts, how many feet, etc. is what we will discuss. I can sketch your ‘Blue Bird nest Box’, and come up with some ideas. Let me know how I can assist.”

This got me wondering. Does anyone have any idea how many people in North America have an active interest and involvement in bluebirds? It seems like every person I talk to who is monitoring a bluebird trail is burned out from a lack of money to do things right, a lack of help, and just feeling like they are doing it all alone. As a complement to trail efforts, I wonder what impact we could have if we concentrated on getting more individuals involved on a small scale personal basis, where it would be a pleasure to monitor a nest box for house sparrows, rat snakes, mites, blows flies or whatever. Bluebirds seem to thrive in suburbia. I bet there are more nest boxes on individual properties than on all the trails combined, but I don’t have data to prove it.

One other question that as me wondering. A lightly colored nest box sitting in the open on a metal pole seems like an open invitation to bluebirds, but also an open invitation to predators and competitors. I’m playing around with a few boxes stained to resemble tulip tree and sweetgum bark. Has anyone else experimented with this, and does anyone have any insight into how cavity nesters find cavities and what their preferences are influenced by?

Sorry to ramble on.
Thanks,
Rob Barron

From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: ideas

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas a warm 50*F with apple trees in full bloom.
Snakes and climbing predators: On concrete slabs they nail down carpet tack strips around the edges of the rooms. These have hundreds of razor sharp short nails sticking out of them. Bluebirders have completely covered mounting poles with these only to report snakes still climbing up and over them to reach the nestboxes. Even raccoons have climbed over them.

In Birds Eye videos of Dick Peterson back in the 1990's he experimented on film with using a drill to install the razor sharp spring wire 4 or 6" long blow gun dart wires to stop predators. These were installed into the posts and into the sides of some nestboxes so that they were pointed to impale the raccoon or other predator as it climbed to the box or was trying to reach into the box. I don't think even this stopped hungry raccoons.

Mounting nestboxes on poles that are part of an electric fence for cattle work at repelling climbing predators.

What attracts bluebirds to a cavity? Install a nestbox without an entrance hole but paint a square or round dark fake hole on the box and it will attract cavity nesters. You can spray paint a fake hole on the side of a light colored tree trunk and it will attract cavity nesters. You can spray paint a dark spot on the side of a building kind of high off the ground and put a perch under it and attract Starling after starling thinking they have found a nest site.

I give talks all the time to different groups and very seldom will you ever find anyone who is checking a bluebird trail not on their property. I knew one man who installed more than 100 nestboxes on his farm once. It not unusual for someone to have 20 nestboxes in their yard but today it is getting more rare to find trails of nestboxes that are maintained on other peoples land. Even parks and businesses don't necessarily want someone coming and installing nestboxes to be checked by a non employee. It is better to have 1000 people place and check one nestbox than to have one person check 1000 nestboxes.

Camo painted nestbox material can be bought as this is used for deer stands. The problem is that raccoons hunt at night mostly using their noses. Old research in Sialia where the guy used a flash camera and a wrist watch to record predation showed that black rat snakes hunted more at night than during the day. I personally believe more and more that predators do remember the cavity location and we should be shifting boxes more often between nesting attempts. This topic would make a good discussion for the list. KK

On Tue 31 Jan 2006 at 21:16, rob barron <rebel1956"at"comcast.net> wrote, in part:
> ...
> One other question that as me wondering. A lightly colored nest box
> sitting in the open on a metal pole seems like an open invitation to
> bluebirds, but also an open invitation to predators and competitors.
> ...

Hi, Rob and all the rest of the list,

Raccoons can learn that nestboxes usually contain a meal. The metal pole is intended to make climbing harder for them. Many of us started out mounting nestboxes on wooden fenceposts. Not too many years ago, wood fenceposts were cheaper than metal. It's only the last 15 or so years that smooth metal posts became the 'standard' for mounting nestboxes. Lots of Bluebirds fledged from boxes on wood fenceposts but too many were lost to predators.

We all need to remember the basics. Out-in-the-open is protection for Bluebirds. If possible, keep the grass mowed or grazed around the boxes. Predators prefer protection from high grass or brush, one reason that fence lines can be dangerous. When a snake ventures out-in-the-open, it becomes vulnerable to detection and consumption by raptors. Raccoons and opossums also prefer cover as protection from dogs, coyotes and other critters that might eat them. Out- in-the-open also means far enough from brush to discourage House Wrens and some other compeditors.

> I'm playing around with a few boxes stained to resemble tulip tree and
> sweetgum bark. Has anyone else experimented with this, ...

I have some experience with painted boxes. Much of my experience is accidental observation rather than experimentation.

You can get a lot of insight over in the many lists for Purple Martins. One pair of Bluebirds or Tree Swallows can take over and dominate an entire rack of gourds or a multi-compartment Martin house and defend the area from SY (second year) Martins.
Once a Purple Martin pair have successfully fledged young at a site, the ASY (after second year) birds have site tenacity and will evict the smaller birds from the Purple Martin housing or, in some cases, co-habitate the housing provided the Bluebird or TRES pair didn't choose the ASY Martin's preferred cavity. SY Martins, which are most likely to nest at a new site, are rather timid until they are paired and nesting. Folks trying to establish a new Purple Martin colony consider Bluebirds and Tree Swallows undesirable compeditors. There are whole web sites on getting EABB and TRES away from Martin housing but getting them to nest close enough that they will protect the Martin housing from other EABB and TRES.
I do that myself, encouraging EABB and TRES to nest close to my Martin housing.

Bluebirds & Tree Swallows LOVE Purple Martin houses and gourds which are almost always painted white.
Since Purple Martins nest rather late and spend a long time in their nest cavities when compared to EABB or TRES, the white color helps reflect sunlight and protect nestlings from excessive heat.

In the archives, you should be able to find many posts about attracting Bluebirds and Tree Swallows.
I know I read enough of them here. Painting a 'bluebird blue' Bluebird on the side of a box seems to attract Bluebirds. Others have used blue ribbon or cloth or strips of mylar hung from the boxes.
All of those seem to work, to some extent. To get Tree Swallows, hang a strip of plastic that's black on one side and white on the other so it spins in the wind.

The usual reason for painting boxes and/or posts to resemble nature are to provide camouflage to defend against human predators. The post and box are less obvious to vandals if they blend in with the back- ground.

If placed correctly, Bluebirds don't mind nestboxes decorated with bright colors, usually on a white background. Go by 'Bridges,' a workshop and store in Warrenton, VA run by handicapped adults. They build and decorate nestboxes to sell in their store.
I occasionally cut some wood and help them assemble nestboxes made to NABS standards. Then they paint the outside of the nestboxes themselves. A copy of a 'guide sheet' comes with the nestboxes that I hope folks read because it includes info on where and how to mount the nestboxes and how to protect nesting birds. I know of some that successfully fledged Bluebirds although I'm sure some are bought as garden ornaments and probably end up occupied by House Sparrows [grumble].

> ... does anyone have any insight into how cavity nesters find cavities
> and what their preferences are influenced by?

Definitely. The dark 'hole' on a light background.
In 'The Birdhouse Monitor's Guide' and lots of other places, you can read about 'the attraction spot' as a way to help attract Bluebirds to a box. Paint a black spot on each side of the box to get Bluebirds to check the box so they will discover the actual entry hole.

The same is true for other cavity nesting birds. I painted round holes on my Purple Martin housing to attract Martins used to traditional houses. I use starling resistant entry holes (SREH) and initially had trouble attracting Purple Martins. Now I have a colony of birds imprinted on SREH. It's easy to get cavity nesters to check out a white box with no holes, just black spots painted on the side.

I have a Starling trap with fake entry holes and one large round entry hole. Starlings and House Sparrows check it out constantly. It's located close to the barn to help keep Martins, Bluebirds and Tree Swallows out of it. I've only caught a couple of native birds in the past few years and none, so far, this year.

I don't think the natural-looking poles will help with raccoons or snakes but the camouflage may help deter vandalism.

Take care,

R J 'Tree' Greenwood
Catlett VA

Hi Tree or RJ.
That's an interesting name; I bet there is a story with it. It's 67, sunny and calm in north Georgia and the eastern bluebirds are singing away and exploring every nest box on my property. So are the Carolina chickadees and wrens; hopefully they'll all find a suitable home. I have yet to see a tree swallow in northern Georgia.

I was really asking a rhetorical question to try to get some interesting discussion going, rather than looking for specific answers. I don't have any purple martin experience other than house sparrow control on several purple martin houses situated on a wetland bank in northern Virginia (not far from Warrenton, closer to Hay Market) where I spent some time doing wetlands delineation.

I'm not a beginning bluebird enthusiast; I've probably assisted in the successful fledging of a few hundred bluebirds and more tree swallows. It was my interest in bluebirds that made me leave the corporate world and go back to college and become a wildlife biologist.

I've read just about all the research on cavity nesters, but I think your and the group's observations provide more valuable "real knowledge' than much of the research papers do.

It has been my observation that a cavity nester will find a hole regardless of whether it is a dark hole on a light background or a dark hole on a dark background, but that house sparrows, house cats, and vandals have a harder time discovering a nest box that doesn't stick out like a sore thumb.

I just wanted to get some discussion going. We've all been reminded where the archives are over and over and most of us probably still don't remember how to get to them. Regardless, I'm here to discuss what people are trying and have had good experiences with. If I just wanted to do research and not have a discussion I would go to the library or use Highbeamresearch.com.

I think one thing this group should experiment with is scent control around nest boxes to deter raccoons and snakes. I've seen that bluebirds are fastidious compared to tree swallows at removing fecal sacs and shell , fragments away from the nest, but a snake's Jacobsen's organ can detect just a few parts per million of a prey animal's scent by flicking their tongues in the air. I think raccoons use a combination of visual observations and scent to find what they eat.

Has anyone experimented with using activated charcoal on the bottom of a nest box to try to hide the scent? It wouldn't be practical on a nest box trail, but it is something one could do on their own property wit a few nest boxes.

Thanks for getting back to me and the group. The more we learn, the more we realize how little we really do know.

Thanks,
Rob Barron-Woodstock, Georgia

My houses are cleaned and ready to go. Bluebirds are checking out the
same house they tried last year and failed. I was reminded a short
time ago about losing 2 sets of 5 eggs last year. The first set of 5 was a little early and we had 3 consecutive nite of below 30 degree temperatures. I just figured they froze and the parents dumped them.
The second set, I have no idea what happened to them. My wife reminded me of our corn snake. Last time he shed last year, the skin was 42 inches, which would be plenty big enough to climb the 5 foot metal pole and get inside.
Any suggestions on how to prevent this if he is indeed the cuplrit?

Lynn near Bernville PA

From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com]
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 6:59 AM
Subject: Re: Side-openers

I will ask my husband about how he hinged the door and let you know. It is a little more trouble to do and we have the workshop kits open from the bottom up as it is less time consuming and we do work on a time situation at these programs. I do like the bottom front opening for myself better than the side opening box I had. The side opening may not all be like the one I had, but we also have some side openings that a person built for a couple of LBBS trails and our trail manager did not like them as well as the front openings and has changed most of them.

I use the Ron Kingston Stovepipe predator guards on all of mine and most of the LBBS trails we do have them. Kenny has used the plastic cones on the smaller LBBS trails and has also made some metal cones. He said they run around $5.00 to make. The plastic store bought cones are around $20.00. The stovepipe guard runs around $6.00 or less depending on how much Lowe's or Home Depot charges for the stovepipe.

Have you ever seen the stovepipe guard? It is stated that it is considered the most effective guard, even more than the cone. However, so far, we have not had any problems using the cone. Occasionally, you will read about someone that had a snake to attach itself to the seam of the stovepipe guard and climb up, but I've never had it happen and I think my snakes are equally as long as Texas, FlA and MS snakes.

I had a severe snake problem several years ago when I had did not have an efficient guard on it. My husband concocted a flat piece of political board about 16 x 24 underneath the nestbox and it only gave the snake a better platform to get to the box. I convinced him we needed to listen to the experts and install the recommended guard. It has solved my problems.

I'll get back to you about the way he hinges the door as he has not awakened yet. :<))

Evelyn

From: rob barron [mailto:rebel1956"at"comcast.net]
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 8:24 AM
Subject: RE: Side-openers

Louisiana, especially the southern part looks like cottonmouth heaven. Do you and your monitors have to take any special precautions when walking your trails? Also, I read that they are expecting an even greater mosquito problem in the hurricane damaged areas and a corresponding spike in West Nile disease. Have mosquitoes and West Nile been an issue with the Bluebirds?
Thanks,
Rob Barron

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas
Back in the late 80's early 90's the Arkansas department of wildlife contacted Harry Krueger about using his mesh snake traps to protect the Red Cockaded Woodpeckers in a couple of their state and national forests. At the time they had only located 18 active cavities in the few colonies left in their state.

I was using a snake trap made from Ross's Garden Netting that was 24" wide by 72" long to go around 8"> 12" diameter wood power poles. You fold over the netting and sew the open edge together with light gauge wire to make a trap that is 12" wide doubled and 72" long bunched up somewhat on about 48"
long piece of wire. Then you wrap this around the large wood poles so that it looks like a ballerina's Tutu skirt.

Anyway the Arkansas boys used this method and made snake traps for all of the active nests they could find and they caught 12 snakes at the 18 locations climbing up the pine trees that had nests above them! They were amazed at the number of potential nest saves this trap produced the first summer.

The larger the tree you use to hang nestboxes and the more limbs there are and the further away from the trunk you hang the nestbox the less likely you are to have predators find the nestbox. In my area using large solitary trees in open livestock pastures removes many if not most of ground based predators. Most predators work the edges of forest woodlands and fence rows.

Linda is not saying to convert ALL of your nestboxes to hanging boxes but look in your area and select a tree in ideal habitat and then look to see if it has good limb structure to support a nestbox. Gourds and PVC nestboxes are lighter in weight and make Ideal hanging boxes. Jack Finch is making nestboxes out of Paulownia wood that are 1/2 the weight of his yellow pine nestboxes and these Paulownia are made from lumber he cuts from the trees he planted when he turned 79 years old!

You can install the Krueger snake trap so that it will catch ONLY the snakes that crawl down the limb the box is hanging from IF the limb structure keeps snakes from reaching the box from above or below.

Bob Walshaw in Oklahoma hangs his nestboxes below the tree limbs and leaves about 24" or so between the limb and the box with heavy wire attached to the middle of the box roof. Instead of using the box lifter like Linda, he carries a pole with a hook and pulls the limb down to where he can unhook the box from the limb by hand. You can apply ant repellant to the wire holding up the nestbox. Some people dip a pipe cleaner in insecticide or insect repellent and wrap the pipe cleaner around the hanging wire to repel ants.

...
KK

From: Sara Ann [mailto:sawright"at"direcway.com]
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 12:05 PM
Subject: Krueger snake trap

Hey, Keith!

I went to http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/nestbox/hksnake.htm
but I'm having trouble understanding the diagrams.

On Figure 2, does the post go through the netting? If so, the BB box must be removed to install the trap, right?

Or does the trap just go onto the post?

I can't see what prevents a snake from simply crawling over the trap to get to the box.

I assume (not always a good idea!) that the snake just goes in one end of the trap and out the other.....in Fig. 2.

Any clarification would be appreciated. Thanks!

Sara Ann Wright
Thayer MO

Continued at Problems with snakes on the bluebird trail (Part 7)

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