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Paul Carrier's Slant BoxSee plans at The Bluebird Box Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 22:27:09 -0400 Hello again -Paul from CT I would like to thank all who showed an interest in my new box design..I received many requests, and have faxed and snail mailed over 2 dozen so far.. I have just had the plans scanned and put on disks. I was told how to put them on an attachment, so I can send them out to different addresses. So far, It hasn't worked for me, but my son said he will help me do it, so if anyone would like the plans sent to them directly, I will try to set it up soon, and let you know when I have done so. I visited the two paired boxes at the fairgrounds today, and because of the cold 26 to 43 f today!!, I did not see any action at the boxes , but many tree swallows were flying, trying to stay alive, and I did see one BB near doing the same thing! I have a Bank where two paired boxes are always occupied with at least one HOSP, and am going to put these boxes here for observation. I hope all who received the plans will try them in HOSP infested areas as well, for here we will see results quickly. At this point, I would like to ask you to report to me, any results you have with these boxes. By the end of the breeding season, we should have a better idea of this boxes value as a HOSP deterrent. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if HOSPs are shown to never use this box, but I suspect this might not be the case. I do feel however, it might just be the best box to date which will do the job of deterring them the best. Side note: For those who want to put a vent into this box, just set the back down 1/4” from the sides; this will serve as a vent, and with the slopping top, will not let in any water. I have also found the use of thin plywood,or better, 1/2” thick wood for the sides, makes the box narrower, and lighter. So if anyone would like to have plans sent to them as an attachment, just forward me your e address, and I will send it on as soon as I get set up to do so......Paul from CT
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 00:20:46 -0400 Hello all!, I am pleased to announce, that Jim McLochlin has graciously put my Bluebird slant box plans onto his web site! You can now find it there, and print yourself a copy! Thank you Jim!!! His web site is http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/index.htmbbbox/nestbox/slant.htm Please let me know if you can access it through this address.......and thanks again Jim! I have had over 20 requests this day alone, and hope you can all get the plans OK. One word about this box: I know one success does not a conclusion make, and that's how I feel about this box. I believe no box design is ever going to be 100% effective in deterring HOSPs. That's too much to ask. I believe Keith K said it best. HOSPs will take the box which suites them the best, and leave the other. If the other is also acceptable to the others, namely Bluebirds, Swallow and other desirables, than it will have done its job. I will experiment with paired slant boxes, but the better way of doing it is to use different designs paired, and hope the two species will live side by side in harmony. I am just curious to see if the HOSPs will nest in them at all. Too good to ever be true, but I will try to see if they will. Imagine if they shun them completely? I don't see this as possible, but I will look for it being a possibility. each day, I am hearing about improvements to this design; and please feel free to change anything you think might better it. Two good suggestions so far are........ Drop the back 1/4" down from the sides, and it will make a great vent. Also, incorporate one of the sides as an opening door, and not the top. I thought of this too, but didn't have the time to experiment with it. Never liked the top opening boxes, for you need assistance to get up to it to look in. So please open Jims web site, and call up the plans, and remember; If you use one or more of these boxes, I would like to hear about your results!! As the season progresses, just e mail me with any observations and your results, so I can summarize all this into a conclusion later in the year. Thanks!........Paul from CT
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:32:26 -0500 Bill Darnell, Savannah, TN I looked at those plans; there has also in the past been a discussion about gourds on the Purple Martin forum with the necks sawed off on a down turn, and holes cut almost in the bottom of larger gourds as this was said to discourage Starlings and Sparrows. I am not writing to disagree or throw cold water, so to speak, but I have seen both Starlings and Sparrows use holes in which they had to make a nearly vertical acension into the cavity, etc., where they were nesting. Example, under the eaves of old houses where a hole either rotted or a woodpecker created it. As KK or someone else has said, just go watch them in an area where there is competetion and see the places they will use. They will use places you never thought possible. So will a bluebird and others if nothing else is available. Bill ...
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 11:49:28 EDT Hi Paul and all, Congtrats on your box plans. Hope your tests will be successful. It would be so great to have a new box that deters the HOSP. I found your post about the HOSP in England and introduction of alien species interesting. Another species (not avian) that the English blame NA for is the Grey Squirrel. I have often heard them complain about how the Grey from America has reduced the poulation of their native Red Squirrel. I don't know if the Grey is supposed to have been introduced, or got there by accident or how much effect it really had but it sure does bother the English. I lived there for over twenty years and can't say I noticed or heard of the decline of the HOSP but I was moving progressively more rural and saw less of them anyway. I do know the Eurasian TREE Sparrow is in serious decline there. On the question of why the HOSP may be declining (particularly around farms) I wonder if the changing use of arable land could have something to do with it. I am not a farmer but I do know that many farmers who used to grow mainly wheat are growing a lot of Rape Seed now in England. Not attractive to HOSP? On the question of whether the HOSP is a problem to other indigenous species the only thing I ever read or heard is that they have been known to push House Martin chicks from the nests. Would be very interested to hear if you hear more about this. Wouldn't it be tragically ironic if the HOSP became an endangered species ( though I don't think there is much chance of that, even with a 50 percent decline, since they were SO numerous) over there and we are left with these terrible problems with it. Best wishes,
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:11:36 -0400 Hi all, from Paul in CT Many thanks for all the sugestions to the new design. I'm sure when an idea like this one is put out onto a site like this, it will get many sugestions and be customised to suit the builder. This is how our free enterprise system works, and I'm all for it! Right on Bluebirders! Many question have been asked, and I will try to answer them as best I can; but remember; this is just a new possible concept, and needs much exposure to prove its worth. Many boxes beeing used is the way to get there, and I'm hopeing this year will do the trick. The use of this box is going to tell the complete story. I have also been told, HOSPs seem to dislike nesting sites(boxes)with low and narrow spaces. They prefer to have height to build thier nests up and over. YES? I'm sure not an eliminating factor, but could also add to the deterent. Was mentioned how Starlings and HOSPs use all kinds of openings in buildings etc under roofs. Yes, but most are quite high, affording them the space to fly into. With this box being placed 5-6' off the ground, I think it might not be as desireable to them as say the Swallow or BB. My two pair seem to go in with ease, and the swallow seems to enjoy doing it as fast as he can! Also, most under the roof sites of HOSPs, usualy have a shelf for them to land on, before going into the opening; and the opening is usualy wide, though not all. I think the lowness of the box hinders the HOSPs approach to the bottom, whereas its fine for the BB and TS. Good luck all, and please remember to let me know how it is going! We should know more by the end of the season.........Thanks.........Paul
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 22:23:53 -0700 Hi Paul, We have made two boxes of your design and so far the only ones using them are the House Sparrows. The Bluebirds are using NABS boxes. N 43* 04.511 W 083* 36.447 Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Galatian 6:7
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:55:45 EDT I finally got a chance to look at the slant box on the web today! Has it occurred to others that, whatever may be the result with HOuse SParrows, this box looks like any raccoon, cat, snake may be out of luck? I simply can't see a paw reaching in easily, though perhaps a snake could *just* hang on to the pole and reach its head to the hole. That alone seems worth it! My only big question: Does anyone see a way of mounting this as a hanging box? I'm planning to put mine down at school, and up out of reach seems sensible. I was thinking of putting it right up under the edge of the flat roof overhang. Velcro? Maybe once I'm holding one an idea will come. Rhonda
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 18:05:56 EDT Rhonda Watts Hi, Barry and all, I got my first 3 slant boxes yesterday, and had more or less come to the same conclusion as you, to somehow install an eye on the top. Because of where I'm planning to mount them, I think/hope perfect balance will not be a major problem. The school has the typical (stupid, IMHO) flat roof with a sizeable overhang, so it looks like hooks can be screwed into the underside of that. If the slant boxes have the back right against the wall, I wouldn't think they would tip, since the long back board should brace it very well. And I think you are right, hinges would not be a problem to install. Wonder if I should post Transcontinental Bluebird Trail signs on the corner of the school? %`)
From: "Gilliam, Jay" jay.gilliam"at"pioneer.com I was out searching for natural cavities that had active nesting last weekend. All of the Black-capped Chickadee nesting activity I observed were in horizontal branches with the hole of the cavity facing straight down. It seems like it would be a dangerous situation for any nestling that approaches the entrance hole to wait for food. All of this raises some questions that hopefully someone can answer. First, has anyone else noticed this hole orientation with Chickadees or other secondary cavity nesters? Second, is there a nestbox plan available that incorporates a downward-facing entrance hole, and if so, do the results with these boxes indicate they are preferred by Chickadees? I remember seeing a plan once that had a downward-facing hole attached to a horizontal section that then attached to a "normal" vertical cavity using PVC pipe (kind of like an upside-down J). I guess the most important question of the above is the results of any studies that compared this type of box with normal boxes and the species that were attracted to them. It turned out to be a productive venture afterall. I found several Chickadee nests, two Flicker nests, a Red-bellied Woodpecker nest, a Hairy Woodpecker nest, and three cavities being used by Eastern Bluebirds. Non-cavity nests located include Eastern Phoebe, two Great Horned Owl nests with babies, American Crow, and several Red-tailed Hawk nests. Thanks--- From: "Bill Darnell" bdarnel3"at"bellsouth.net I added several gourds to my Martin gourd racks with a hole on the bottom of "longish" horizontal gourds, at the place where the neck joins the bulb. The Martins seem to be showing a preference for this configuration. They have all kinds of choices. Bill Tennessee I was out searching for natural cavities that had active nesting last ... From: "Keith & Sandy Kridler" kridler"at"1starnet.com Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas I have used four of these boxes for three seasons now, originally Paul wanted to see if they were House Sparrow resistant. Bluebirds do use them and also the sparrows. I had the first nesting of tufted titmice this spring in one but lost their eggs to flying squirrels. I did not have the boxes in good locations for the chickadees until Shawn moved them to our woods. We put them up (three boxes now) specifically for the flying squirrels but they were not in them this weekend. Many of the woodpeckers do build from the bottom of the limbs. Paul has a good design for small woodpeckers and this might be better at keeping starlings from flicker sized boxes if you make his box bigger. It did not work at repelling sparrows but then not much does work for long. One of the major problems I see is trying to trap a sparrow out of the box once they started using it. This is why it failed for me as I could not remove a pair of sparrows with standard traps. The Van Ert might even work in this design. Here at the house I have boxes on about 24 acres nearly half heavy mature woods. One acre of swamp about 12" deep for frog production. 8 acres has not been mowed in three years and is waist high grass and scrub brush to 15 feet tall. I finally made a new count of my boxes and have right at 66 nestboxes that range in size from 3" square up to 12"x 18" and nearly every style, entrance hole imaginable.... mounted from 4 feet to 24 feet off of the ground. Trees, wood posts, metal you name the mounting methods. there are bluebird sized pairs five feet apart at about 6 areas. Anyway I have/had 8 pairs of bluebirds, 6 pairs of House Sparrows, three pairs of starlings, one pair of wood ducks, three boxes had gray tree frogs in them, three had fox or gray squirrels in them, one flying squirrel, and lots of Carolina chickadees and Tufted titmice, I didn't find any Carolina wrens in the boxes or owls but could not check all of the boxes and still a little early for the ducks although I saw three pairs of woodies. I found the first ever BIG rat in a flicker box about 15 feet off of the ground....I would rather have found a snake! I have more boxes with chickadees and titmice (9) on these 20+ acres than along 70 miles of road trails. We heard the first Great Crested flycatcher today! So it looks like a very good start to the year! Remember I am in the city limits and only three blocks from an elementary school of 200 plus kids! KK From: Maynard R Sumner, m-r-sumner"at"juno.com Hi All, I received my Birds & Blooms today and it had that so called sparrow-proof nestbox with the hole on the bottom. It said that if you put up a regular box within 15-20 feet the sparrows will take the regular box. Maybe in some locations it will work this way but at my location it is not working. Most of the time the sparrows try to get into the so called sparrow-proof box. I keep pulling the sparrow nest out. It has no way you can put a trap in the box. Maynard Sumner Flint, MI From: Bruce Burdett, blueburd"at"tds.net To the Constituency, The very idea of having the entrance hole in the bottom strikes me as faulty for many practical reasons. I'll need to see (or hear) a great deal of hard evidence before I'll believe that it has merit. Just for starters, with an average-size floor, how will the birds get around the side of the nest in order to get up to the nest cup? Who can tell us what some of the advantages are? Bruce Burdett, SW NH From: Paula, PaulaZ"at"columbus.rr.com I found article on page 60 [February 2003]. These gentlemen have been busy making lots of bluebird boxes (God bless them). The ones in top photo are NABS style boxes, but photo on left shows Ray's bottom entrance hole box. The entrance hole appears to be in front bottom of box with ample space for nest to be built in back bottom of box. The caption under photo states "...Ray is expanding his 'sparrow-proof' bluebird trail. The entrances to his bluebird nest boxes are on the bottom, making them less attractive to pesky house sparrows." I wonder how much experimentation has been done with these boxes. From comments of others on list, they have not been overly thrilled with this design. In my experience, just watching the HOSP and EABL, I find the HOSP's follow the movements of the EABL's with great interest whether it be at the feeder or at a nestbox. If the EABL shows any interest in box or feeder, HOSP swoops in to stake his claim. I cannot imagine that this would be any different with box that has hole in bottom. Interesting concept though. I would love to hear what Ray's experience has been, how many boxes he has tried, and why he feels they are better. Would such a box be better or worse for predator concerns? Design might better protect babies from weather with hole on bottom, BUT could older babies fall out hole in bottom? I also wonder, looking at design, if a HOSP stuck just his head in the box to try to take it, it appears as though the EABL would have a fighting chance to thwart his taking the box - better design for defending nest perhaps and keeping mama alive? If HOSP got his whole self in there though, it could be ugly. For trapping HOSP, I have almost as much success stuffing rag in entry hole at night or dusk as I do with inhouse traps. I do not know if these boxes have easy opening lid, but if they do, this would probably be only way to trap HOSP in such a box using garbage bag secured over lid area as you open... I am intrigued and full of questions. Paula Z Powell (Central) Ohio From: Jody Jackson, jodyrn"at"bright.net Bruce and all, I subscribe to Birds and Blooms. Although the article does not say much about the box with the hole in the bottom, it does say "the entrance to his bluebird nest boxes are on the bottom, making them less attractive to pesky house sparrows". There is a picture of the box (with the top off of it). It appears the same width but about twice as long, and the nest is filling the back half of the box with the hole in the front half. I'm sure the house sparrows around here (north central Ohio), do not care where the hole is located. They will find a way in. I'll stick with my NABS boxes. They work for me and I'm able to trap the HOSP and remove them. Not sure how that would work with the "hole in the bottom" box..... Jody From: stevec, stevec"at"cctc.net theresa eastland,tx From: Dan Hanan, danhan7"at"earthlink.net Dan Hanan 35 miles SE of Austin, TX From: Evelyn Cooper, emcooper"at"bayou.com" They are lucky some predator didn't pluck them out. Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA ... From: Maynard R Sumner, m-r-sumner"at"juno.com No, you are not silly to think a fledging may fall out of the box too soon. The fledglings do fall out of the two boxes like this that I have. I have had only one bluebird use one of the boxes. House sparrows use it. I pull the nests out as fast as they make them. no way to trap them. Maynard Sumner From: Keith & Sandy Kridler, txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net We got our copy yesterday and this is Paul Carrier's design of a bottom holed nestbox. I believe the plans for this nestbox are still in Best of Bluebird-L on Jim's site. Picture a Dick Peterson nestbox made from all 3/4" lumber. Now drill a hole in the BACK of the normal Peterson box very near the bottom of the box. Now take this nestbox and nail the ROOF of the Peterson box to a pole with the entrance hole now at the bottom and you will see that the bluebirds have a long bottomed nestbox with a deeper area at the back for them to build their nest in. Paul DID NOT copy the exact angles or dimensions of the Peterson box for this but I used this analogy for those who are unfamiliar with Paul's basic design. The roof of his box is now horizontal and the bottom slopes up towards the entrance at a gentle angle. Back in the 1980's several people were designing nestboxes with what looked like a solid wood Jim Noel predator guard. They then closed off the front of this wood guard and drilled a hole in the bottom of this guard so that a bluebird would have to fly under the guard land on the front of the nestbox and then crawl up and into the entrance to this box style from the bottom of the guard. This was supposed to help stop predation problems and prevent house sparrows from entering from upside down positions. These boxes were more difficult to build and used a lot more lumber and never caught on probably because they did not achieve their goals of sparrow proof or predator proof. I know that mice liked this style of nestbox. Paul's box is a really good looking design when used in woodlands and the flying squirrels just love the size of the nestbox. Flying squirrels do need nesting boxes with two holes though as snakes can wipe out an entire colony when they enter and block the only exit. Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas From: Ron Kingston, kingston"at"cstone.net Having not seen the issue of Birds and Blooms magazine: Are we talking about the Paul Carrier's Slant Box? http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/nestbox/slant.htm Ron Kingston Charlottesville VA From: Keith & Sandy Kridler, :txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net From: Psbmhborch1952"at"aol.com Hello, I'm a bluebird lover also. I saw a bluebird box in the Birds and Bloom magazine and was wondering if you sell them? I would buy one. It is the Carrier Bluebird house. Or could you tell me where I purchase one? I don't like sparrows and maybe this box would be the one. Patti From: Jim
McLochlin, bluebirdbox"at"cox.net Patti, The Carrier Slant Box is not sold by anyone that I am aware of. I do have construction drawings for this box at : http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/nestbox/slant.htm. This link also has the last known contact information for Paul Carrier. From what I heard this box has not proved very successful at deterring house sparrows. I haven't tried the box myself so I cannot speak from experience only from the expressions of others. If you wish to see the comments regarding this box style see http://www.bestofbbml.audubon-omaha.org/slant.htm I am copying your Message to the mailing list Bluebird-L, this is where this box got it's start and looking at the archives (Best of Bluebird-L Classified) reveals not much has been said about the box since 4/15/2002. You may get some response by those on the list with more recent experience. Jim McLochlin Omaha, NE From: Bet Zimmerman, ezdz"at"charter.net Actually Jim there was a discussion thread about this box - I posted it on a different page of the Best of Bluebird_L Archives because I didn't realize that it was called the Carrier Slant Box until later. The discussion is now posted on the correct page at http://www.bestofbbml.audubon-omaha.org/slant.htm Basically I gathered people felt it was difficult to build, used more lumber, was appealing to mice, might allow nestlings to fall out out, found it WAS used by HOSP and it is almost impossible to use inbox nestbox traps in the slant box. From: birdwatcherfc"at"netscape.net [Note from webmaster: See Nestboxes (Zuern Tree Branch Box)] From: PTom [mailto:ptom"at"austin.rr.com] Bet Zimmerman wrote ... "...Carrier Slant Boxes (which do not appear to deter house sparrows.)" I was absent from Bluebird-L for some time this summer. Do we have documented instances of House Sparrow nesting attempts in Carrier Slant Boxes (other than in CA with Mountain Bluebirds where the nestboxes with this style are hanging from tree limbs)? According to a paper that I picked up at the NABS Convention (which was printed from "The Bluebird Box" website), Paul Carrier asks that results be forwarded to him. Paul Carrier 80 High View Lane Harwington CT 06791 eemmuu"at"worldnet.att.net 860.485.9654 I'd like to see results posted on Bluebird-L, also. These boxes have received so much publicity from "Birds and Blooms", bluebirders will be asked about them. If House Sparrows are nesting in them, I'd like to be able to cite actually instances. Pauline Tom Mountain City (no mountains) TX From: Elizabeth Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net] RE: Carrier Slant Boxes Welcome back Pauline! There was a thread earlier this year on the box (http://www.bestofbbml.audubon-omaha.org/slant.htm). Maynard Sumner indicated he has tried them and did have HOSP nest attempts. I will send an e-mail to Carrier. The local birding store made some up after they saw the Birds & Blooms article, and donated a box to me to try. I put it in a neighbor's yard across from a HOSP slum (another story - I'm still working on that one). Tree swallows checked it out but were never seen entering it. HOSP tried to claim it, and entered it, but I didn't allow them to nest in it. We left the box open till they moved on. Finally paper wasps moved in. With the way it opens, I can visualize nesting material and eggs spilling out when monitoring. It would be very difficult (if not impossible) to use an inbox trap (definitely not Huber style.) We finally left it open for the rest of the season. I'm going to replace it with the new Gilwood boxes I got from Steve Gilberston. Bet from CT From: PTom [mailto:ptom"at"austin.rr.com] http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4317997862&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT where a Carrier nestbox is being sold as "Sparrow Free". The photo of the installed nestbox does not depict the Carrier plans (found on The Bluebird Box website) which call for the top to be mounted parallel to the ground. The photo shows the box mounted with the bottom (with the hole) mounted parallel to the ground. Pauline Tom Mountain City (no mountains) TX From: Haleya Priest [mailto:mablue"at"gis.net] I had a friend try one and he got HOSP right away. He sent one to me, mine went unused by anyone. :-) H From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot"at"mtco.com] I wonder if the people claiming that HOSP won't use a particular nestbox, don't have any sparrows? I would also be concerned about the sparrows still harassing any birds that do happen to nest in the slant boxes. I have seen sparrows with eggs in a nestbox, drive off bluebirds from nearby nestboxes. Birds & Blooms has such a dedicated following, that I hope that we can gather some good, concrete data for them. Dottie Roseboom Peoria IL (central - zone 5) From: Elizabeth Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net] Yes, I do think it would be good to get them some info, although I wonder if they'd print it. I DO wish SOMEONE would come up with a HOSP proof and a HOWR proof box, so I don't want to discourage anyone from trying, but this one doesn't seem to work. (Note: If you want to see what the Carrier/Slant box looks like, see http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/nestbox/slant.htm. I mounted mine with the top parallel to the ground.) Bet From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot"at"mtco.com] Bet, like you, I definitely do NOT want to discourage some brilliant person from developing a nestbox that sparrows would hate. However, I hope that all birders use caution before declaring such a nestbox exists. It definitely needs months of testing in sparrow territory. When we get our hopes up about a sparrow-proof nestbox, only to have it dashed, I find it even harder to start trapping again. Dottie Roseboom Peoria IL (central - zone 5) From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net] Re: Carrier Slant Boxes Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas Before we put out The Bluebird Monitor's Guide Paul Carrier came up with this design to be tested. I think out of the four boxes I put up in House Sparrow territory I immediately got three pairs of House Sparrows....This was before the Van Ert sparrow trap and I had no way of trapping out the sparrows. So after two years of having House Sparrows I removed the boxes and now use them in the woods for flying squirrels. I believe by 2002 the consensus on this box was that it did NOT deter House Sparrows at all. This is another case of old information getting out in new publications and the myth will still be with us 100 years from now. If you watch starlings and House Sparrows nesting around buildings you often see them flying up into holes in the soffit (the flat area right next to exterior walls under the roof overhang.) I always enjoy the articles where they say that House Sparrows don't like a large entrance hole or bright light coming into the new "sparrow proof" nestboxes but you see house sparrows nesting in flashing light signs and even nesting in the globes of street lights if there is a hole in them that they can enter. House sparrows nest in the branches of trees and bushes so why would a large hole or more light deter them from nesting in a nestbox? They routinely nest in the 2" inside diameter horizontal steel pipe that is often used at ball fields and for livestock fence. This is far smaller than any nestbox that bluebirds should use. They will nest from 24" off the ground to 70 feet in the air or more. They nest in boxes or locations painted ALL colors of the rainbow. They nest in towns, cities and farms. They can be found nesting miles from the nearest building or farm. Five or six pairs will use the same Purple Martin house or bush to nest in at the same time. They nest in tiny natural cavities in trees or metal mailboxes with the door left open. House Sparrows can thrive on thousands of different species of weed seeds and will eat ANY species of "bird seed" if they have to. They prefer seeds but like starlings they will even eat road kills if other types of food are with held. They love fresh vegetable matter! There are 6 billion humans on earth now and I would guess about 3 billion House Sparrows....I figure in 50 years when they predict that there will be 8 billion humans that there will still be about 2 billion sparrows keeping us Earthlings company. KK From: Haleya Priest [mailto:mablue"at"gis.net] KK thanks for spelling out the variety of ways HOSP will nest. I've seen them nest right in the hub of a giant ride at an amusement park with 1,000's of visitors and screaming patrons of this ride. Dottie, let's remember there will NEVER be a sparrow-PROOF box. Once we let go of that myth, then we can all agree that there are some boxes that are sparrow -resistant - but even that is questionable given the right circumstance! :-) H From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] I think when publications like Birds & Blooms recommends these things, it hurts our cause. Many people swear by this magazine. I cringe when I see pictures in it that is a "no, no". I like the magazine, but they should be aware of some things that are "way off base". Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA From: Haleya Priest [mailto:mablue"at"gis.net] You Know if one of us took up the cause we could get a BB-L petition going to send to Birds and Blooms with the reason why we know that the Carrier box isn't what is was touted to be! Unfortunately, my hands are full but surely there are one or more of you out there that could take this up. :-) H From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot"at"mtco.com] It is a beautiful magazine - can be a great introduction to people not aware of natural beauty all around them. I wonder if this is a case of the editors not understanding some basic facts about birds, sparrows specifically? Hubby calls this the "Mark Trail" syndrome. Would individual letters help more than an organized petition??? Just trying to generate some thoughts. Dottie Roseboom Peoria IL (central - zone 5) From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot"at"mtco.com] After 17 years of observing sparrows, I completely agree with Keith & Haleya about the tenacious sparrow's ability to nest almost anywhere. That's why if anyone claims that a sparrow resistant nestbox exists, that I need definite proof, such as 5 nestboxes in my area for an entire season without any sparrow harassment (LOL, not a bad way to get some free nestboxes???) I definitely think that the average monitor would be much better off practicing his/her trapping techniques rather than trying to design a new nestbox. Even though I do not believe that a sparrow resistant box is possible, I also didn't believe 35 years ago, that I would be communicating with a Texan and a New Englander basically at the same time, without having to lick a stamp and stuff an envelope. BTW, the weather is so cold here, that the sparrows aren't leaving the pines. Could someone invent a sparrow trap for trees? ;-) Dottie Roseboom Peoria IL (central - zone 5) From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net] ... Birds and Bloom:I would think that the best way to handle something like this would be to point out the many different "House Sparrow" Proof nestboxes that have been invented over the years and how these remarkable little Weaver Finches have always adapted....They adapt quicker in some areas than in others. On the other hand, Paul Carrier's design is NOT anymore likely to have sparrows nesting than any other style in the same location! If those building Paul's design have sparrows in their yard then chances are that sparrows will use this box or any other style they put up. If this inspires someone (which it obviously did) to go build another nestbox and put it up then that would be good for the birds. If or when they have sparrow problems MAYBE they will be inspired to redesign and build another "sparrow Proof" nestbox:-)) ...KK From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] P.S. In one issue of B&B, I saw a picture of HOSP babies in the nest and it was glorified. They might not understand our point of view, but I still think we should send information about it. Evelyn From: Cher [mailto:BluebirdNut"at"a-znet.com] Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 6:33 PM Subject: Nestbox with entrance hole in bottom A friend of mine told me today that a recent issue of Backyard Living Magazine (Another Reiman - "Birds & Blooms" - magazine) had an article talking about a Bluebird nestbox that HOSPs would not enter that had the entrance hole on the bottom of the box. I had a vague recollection of seeing this discussed somewhere -- was it here? -- but can't locate it now. Need input. -- From: Dottie, Hickory Hollow, Brown County, Indiana [mailto:yumyumkatts"at"voyager.net] Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 8:24 PM Subject: Re: Nestbox with entrance hole in bottom This was discussed on BBL last year and the consensus was that it was not
a Dottie, Hickory Hollow From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net] Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 8:23 PM Subject: Re: nestbox with entrance hole on bottom Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas This nestbox design can be very useful to people who want to increase the numbers of flying squirrels as this is almost ideal for this species and the large flat roof makes for a good launching pad for these tiny squirrels. The bottom entrance hole is also good for the squirrels who may have predators sitting above them in a forested location. I thought there were plans for this nestbox on Best of Bluebird-L but I have not looked for them in a while. Keith K From: Maynard Sumner [mailto:m-r-sumner"at"juno.com] Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 8:36 PM Subject: Re: Nestbox with entrance hole in bottom Yes, it was here and I will say what I said before when we were talking about. This will not keep the HOSP out of the box. I have had one for three years and have had only one bluebird nest in the box. The HOSP killed all the babies. The HOSP love This box. You have no way of using a trap in the box so I have to keep pulling HOSP nests out. Maynard Sumner -----Original Message----- Agree! I put a test box up and HOSP were all over it. Tree swallows were interested (partly because box was in a good location next to a pond) but HOSP drove them off. I couldn't even get the Van Ert trap to work properly in it (the Huber would not work, as it relies on gravity.) Another problem with this box is monitoring - if you open it, the nest material, eggs and babies could all fall out. For those who are still interested, plans are at http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/nestbox/slant.htm, discussion on Best of archived at http://www.bestofbbml.audubon-omaha.org/slant.htm I've been meaning to write a letter to Birds & Blooms, as I continue to be concerned by their glowing descriptions and photos of decorative houses that are bound to become HOSP slums, or are poorly designed (e.g., so deep fledglings would not be able to exit.) Bet from CT Handout for neglected nestboxes/house sparrow advisory at http://www.sialis.org/neglect.htm From: Jeanette Stamm [mailto:jeanettefromks"at"webtv.net] Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 8:27 PM Subject: Re: BLUEBIRD-L digest 1086 We made a nestbox last year with a hole in the bottom just as Birds and Blooms said to do; well the HOSP loved it and we never saw a bluebird come near. So I take what Birds and Blooms says with a grain of salt as this is not the first time they have mislead us. It's a lovely little magazine but they need to do their homework! I have written to them a couple of times. From: Elizabeth Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net] Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 9:02 AM Subject: RE: BLUEBIRD-L digest 1086 An item on the slant box with a drawing showed up in April/May 2004 issue of Birds & Blooms, page 4 - "Readers Clamor for Birdhouse Plan". It says (excerpts): "We should have known that a "sparrow proof" bluebird house
woule be an attention-grabber. After publishing a photo of Ray Corbitt's
unique nest box (Feb/Mar "Backyard Banter", page 60), we were deluged
with requests for plans.... Ray first heard about the slanted box design
through a meeting of bird enthusiasts.. It originated with Paul Carrier in
Harwington, CT. After re-reading this, I'm writing a letter NOW! Bet from CT From: Elizabeth Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net] Okay, here is what I sent to editors"at"birdsandblooms.com. I know some of their readers (and others) enjoy having house sparrows around, so I tried to keep that in mind, but probably didn't do too well in that dept. This may also be too long for them to use, or they may be worried about alienating readers.... but I figured it's worth a try. Bet NO box that bluebirds can enter is sparrow-proof. Some box styles may not be preferred by house sparrows, including Slot, Gilbertson, Gilwood, and shallow nestbox (3-5" deep) designs. However, even though house sparrows may not prefer to nest in certain types of nestboxes, they may still enter them for the purposes of attack, and may use them if nesting sites are limited. If people wish to put up decorative birdhouses such as the beautiful designs featured in your magazine, but do not want them to be used for house sparrow breeding, they can make the diameter of the entrance hole 1 1/8". This will allow chickadees, titmice, wrens and nuthatches to enter, and will protect their eggs, babies and adults from being attacked by house sparrows. Another option for decorative boxes is to plug the entrance hole, use a "fake" painted hole, or remove the birdhouse floor. This should always be done for decorative boxes that are too deep to allow nestlings to fledge from the box, potentially sentencing the babies to death. Bluebird populations declined by an estimated 90% from 1920-1970, threatened by competition from introduced species (house sparrows and starlings), loss of open space and nesting cavities (bluebirds can't excavate their own holes), increased pesticide use, and severe weather. While Eastern Bluebird populations are now increasing (probably due to conservation efforts), Western Bluebird populations are not. And none of the issues that caused the decline has really gone away. Without assistance from people like your readers, bluebirds will continue to have difficulty surviving and thriving. Bet Zimmerman, Woodstock Valley, CT PS. Plans for Slot, Gilwood and shallow nestboxes can be found at http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/nestbox/nestbox.htm There are a number of passive and active techniques for deterring or managing house sparrows. A compilation can be found at http://www.sialis.org/hosp.htm. From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 1:26 PM Subject: FW: Paul Carrier Slant Box This is what I wrote to the editor of Birds & Blooms. ... I would like to add to what Bet Zimmerman wrote to you. Both of us are members of the Cornell University Bluebird List and this subject has been discussed at length by many members on the List. Many have tried it and stated it does not deter House Sparrows. They state it is not a safe nest box for Bluebirds or other cavity nesters. Evelyn Cooper From: Paula [mailto:PaulaZ"at"columbus.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:50 AM Subject: RE: BLUEBIRD-L digest 1086 Bet et al, Regarding the "sparrow proof" birdhouse, with all the negative testimony from bluebirders on the list (i.e. those who hava actually tried the thing), it is unfortunate that people clamor for design plans for a house that seems to actually encourage sparrows, and worse, does not allow ready access to eliminate them. I contend that a "sparrow proof:" nestbox is a nice myth or dream, and I think it is admirable that people are experimenting to fulfill that dream, but I truly doubt it can ever be done. Logic dictates that a HOSP can easily fit into any space that an EABL can, and we already know they are highly adaptable to many different nesting locations. I will stick with functional nestboxes and inbox traps that I know work well. Regarding Birds and Blooms, I was a subscriber as I enjoyed the excellent photography, but I have not renewed my subscription due to claims like these and the propagation of "artsy" bird houses that can only encourage more HOSP nestings. If you are going to publish a magazine on a thing, you should know the thing you are talking about IMHO. So (little plug), I will stick with my Cornell Lab of Ornithology subscription and actually learn something. Paula Z From: Elizabeth Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 9:09 AM Subject: Sparrow proof nestbox I don't subscribe to Birds & Blooms (I like the NABS Bluebird Journal and Cornell's Birdscope MUCH better!) - my neighbor passes it along. But it IS a pretty popular magazine. (Their last issue featured a bluebird on the cover and a complete article. Sometimes they have purdy pictures.) I think it is irresponsible to encourage people to put up poorly designed nestboxes or to make unsubstantiated claims. Birds & Blooms also often includes favorable items on house sparrows (HOSP) that do not mention the threat HOSP pose to cavity-nesters. However, it is interesting that they apparently got a LOT of requests for a "sparrow-proof" box. I guess I am the poster child for the triumph of optimism over experience,
and continue to dream that someday someone will come up with a method or
box In the meantime, like you, I'll use every method at my disposal to keep HOSP from nesting on my trail - monofilament, sparrow spookers, the new suggestion from Loren Hughes to cut a hole in either side of the box and staple a patch of milk jug on it to let more light inside the cavity, trapping etc., and keep testing new ideas. Actually I will have to rely on you folks more this year, as I haven't seen a HOSP in my neighborhood since June due to three years of serious trapping. Bet ... From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 10:46 AM Subject: RE: BLUEBIRD-L digest 1086 My sister-in-law pays for my subscription since 2001 as a gift to me. This
magazine has some faulty information, but it does have some nice things. In the December/January 2004 issue on page 60 in the Tidbits Section, it says this person saves cotton balls and tosses them near his bird houses as he saw a House Sparrow use it at the entrance at night to block the chilling wind. On page 36 in the same issue where all the very ornate nestboxes are, one
has two Bluebirds painted on it and the artist made their beaks yellow. Then, on page 52 there is a picture of the most gorgeous live oak tree I've ever laid my eyes on. It is the Angel Oak, in South Carolina more than 1,400 years old. The lower limbs rest on the ground. This I really loved seeing. I'll keep getting this magazine and looking for its faults and we should always be mindful of what we teach others and not just overlook things taught against what NABS sets forth for us. To me, it is the best way. Evelyn Cooper From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot"at"mtco.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 2:13 PM Subject: Re: BLUEBIRD-L digest 1086 Evelyn, you bring up some valid points. I try to get each B&B issue from the library, so that I can enjoy some breath-taking pictures, such as the oak tree that you mention. I also think that it's good for us to recognize what information (both the good & bad) is being presented to the public. Then we can "think a bit quicker" on our feet, when these ideas are brought up at Bluebird seminars, etc. And your example of the cotton ball can help us understand what we are up against!!! And dare I say, that perhaps if we keep our eyes open, someday, we might learn something beneficial? However, like you & Paula, I would rather have my sturdy, un-fashionable nestbox than their fancy ones. And I think that the birds would agree with us :-) Dottie Roseboom From: JOHN & BARBARA SIBIO [mailto:jsibio"at"comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 10:59 AM Subject: Re: Sparrow proof nestbox People out here in our area are in love with "cute" ornamental
birdhouses, such as the ones featured in Birds & Blooms. Right now our
county paper is planning a feature on unusual birdhouses and they are asking
readers to "share" interesting birdhouses with them. I don't know
how many decorative birdhouses are actually occupied, but I suspect the number
is pretty low since I have put some out over the years and had few birds
actually move in. From: birdwatcherfc"at"netscape.net [mailto:birdwatcherfc"at"netscape.net] Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 8:49 PM Subject: RE: BLUEBIRD-L digest 1086 Hello, I have had one of the "tree branch" boxes on my trail for five summers and the only thing that has used it has been a spider. As for the contents spilling out, not to worry since the top opens. Fred (Southern PA) From: bluebirdsnbirdfeeders"at"gmail.com [mailto:bluebirdsnbirdfeeders"at"gmail.com] How many of you have heard of the Carrier Nest Box? It was designed by Paul Carrier and said to be 'sparrow proof' because it has an entrance from the bottom. I built one for my Grandpa and gave it to him, and he put it up about 50 ft. from another bluebird house that he has. But he still got sparrows in it. I will admit that the sparrows were slower to use it, but I wouldn't say it is sparrow proof. I was just wondering if any of you had any of these boxes and if you have had any success? From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net] Paul Carrier designed this nestbox and did not have House Sparrows use it on his property. When the plans spread around the country most other people using this box DID get House Sparrows in the box. I have used four of them for quite a few years and have moved them to wooded areas for use by flying squirrels. Within a week of installing four of these in House Sparrow prone locations I had three pairs of sparrows and it was difficult/impossible to trap and remove the sparrows from these boxes, thus I moved them after a couple of years where sparrows do not live. From: bluebirdsnbirdfeeders"at"gmail.com [mailto:bluebirdsnbirdfeeders"at"gmail.com] Thanks for the info. I wasn't sure what had happened about that style of nest box. This confirms what I concluded also. From: rob barron [mailto:rebel1956"at"comcast.net] Hi Keith and Sandy, ... In my experience, the only house sparrow proof nest box is a well monitored nest box. I’ve been experimenting with Jimmy’s suggestion that house sparrows won’t nest in a box that receives light, but instead of drilling a hole in the top to let in light I’ve installed 2” plexiglass portholes. It’s too early in Georgia to see if this will work but it’s a fun experiment. I only see house sparrows in Georgia at Lowes, Home Depot, and fast food parking lots. ...
I am interested in any experiences listers have with Paul Carrier's Slant Box. I have seen Bluebirds make that flutter-hover movement before, so they should be able to negotiate that bottom hole. I built one yesterday using the plans on http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/nestbox/slant.htm One thing I found: If you go strictly by the plans specs for the bottom, you may end up with the drain gap at the back being larger than the 1/4" specified. This is because of the bevel at the front. I cut my second floor at 11" and nibbled until I go a good fit; variation on 'measure twice, cut once" Bob From: plkldf"at"comcast.net [mailto:plkldf"at"comcast.net]
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 3:48 PM Subject: Re: Slant Box advice Paul Kilduff
Baltimore MD
Bob: try googling carrier slant box. There are quite a few references, not one of them good. The most explanatory reference follows. As Keith Kridler says, "This is another case of old information getting out in new publications and the myth will still be with us 100 years from now." Got that right!!
~Paul in Baltimore
--------------------
Unfortunately, the nestbox is not "House Sparrow- proof." The nestbox seems to be "House Sparrow-resistant" in some areas at various times, but folks who have tried the nestbox have found that it attracts House Sparrows. Keith Kridler, our co-founder, recalls (in a message on Bluebird L, an electronic forum) that while he was working on The Bluebird Monitor's Guide, the slant nestbox was designed, and the authors were asked to test it. "I think out of the four boxes I put up in House Sparrow territory, I immediately got three pairs of House Sparrows...This was before the Van Ert sparrow trap and I had no way of trapping out the sparrows. So after two years of having House Sparrows, I removed the boxes and now use them in the woods for flying squirrels." Maynard Sumner in Flint, Michigan, reports a similar experience. "I have used a Carrier Slant Box for four years. The first three years every time a Bluebird or a Tree Swallow used the box it was killed by a House Sparrow, and only House Sparrows used the box.". A local birding store in Connecticut made some Carrier Slant Boxes after they saw the Birds & Blooms article, and donated a box to Bet Zimmerman for a try-out. (Bet has a great bluebird website, http://www.sialis.org/ ). She installed the box in a neighbor's yard across from a House Sparrow slum ... Tree Swallows checked it out but were never seen entering it. The sparrows entered it and tried to claim it, but she didn't allow them to nest. She left the box open till they moved on. As a general rule, House Sparrows are not picky when selecting a nesting site. They fly up into soffit areas next to exterior walls under overhanging roofs. They nest in WalMart neon signs. Kridler believes, "By 2002 the consensus on this box was that it did NOT deter House Sparrows at all. This is another case of old information getting out in new publications and the myth will still be with us 100 years from now."
When I built my trial nestboxes of this style I hinged the top and made them top opening nestboxes. Over the years I have had titmice, bluebirds, house sparrows use them in open areas. I have moved them all to my woods now and the flying squirrels rotate through and use the nestboxes periodically. I have had trouble with gray and fox squirrels eating into the nestboxes or using them for feeding platforms and I normally have to add another wooden hole reducer on them once a year. I probably also have had woodpeckers using them for roosting. From: Bob Salsburg [mailto:listres"at"bellsouth.net] Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 4:55 PM Subject: Re: Slant Box advice OK. The message is clear. In fact, the box was up for several days and no interest. They didn't even come around so I could see them turn their noses up at it. On the positive side, it looks like I can use the unorthodox carcass of the slant box to fashion a modified Peterson box with very little extra usage from my wood supply. Thanks to all. Bob (who will ask first next time) |
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