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Nestbox Predator ID (Part 2)In addition to Messages that have appeared in the Bluebird Mailing Lists on this topic, the following are on the Audubon Society of Omaha website: Predators and Problems On The Bluebird Trail Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 12:32:29 -0400 Well, the parents came by last night and just stopped on the box for a minute, then went off into the trees. They didn't come back. This morning they were nowhere to be seen. I don't know if they were scared off, or picked off... The babies (3 of them) were dead, a couple of little mites on one.... they still had yolk sacs, their eyes weren't open yet. I don't know what happened to the other two babies; there were five eggs, and they all hatched. The box is on one of those wrought iron "shepherd's hook" about fifteen feet from the house. There is no sign of a predator such as scratches or hair on the box or around it, no tracks in the grass. This box is in an area that is lighted at night by my porch light, and close enough to the house that I don't think a fox would come by. We have lots of skunks which I suppose could get a bird? or intimidate a bird? I don't know what skunks eat. other wildlife is deer, badgers, possums, moles etc... nothing dangerous. There are lots of raptors in the area, and the bluebirds might have been run off by one that I didn't notice. Who knows... sigh -Theresa"at"BowEcho.com Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:37:11 -0400 Haleya Priest Amherst, MA Dear Theresa, so sorry to hear about your blues! :-( I would love to hear everyone's ideas, as I've had 2 nests in the past month or so that the parents just "disappeared" - and had the same end outcome. Dead nestlings. :-( These are the kinds of situations that seem so uncontrollable. H Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:34:26 -0400 Theresa, I'm so sorry to hear that! How horrible for you! You were asking about HOSP sparrows the other day. Could it have been them? Lynette Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:25:37 -0500 In some cases (in my opinion) nestlings die because the parents do disappear. The parents may have been taken by a predator or may have died from pesticide poisoning, for example. Then the babies die from malnutrition. The other cases, the babies die first and the parents seem to disappear. I think the parents, in this case, know the babies are dead and head somewhere else to attempt another nesting. The best way to tell if the parents disappeared before the babies died or after the babies died is by looking at the babies. If the babies have full bellies then the babies did not die from the parents disappearing. They may have died from predation, heat, etc. then the parents moved on. If the babies appear malnourished then most likely the parents have died or abandoned them. I had one case similar to these examples this season, where I found 5 nestlings dead, but with full bellies in the nest. The parents were not around. Upon close examination, I discovered bruising around the nestlings necks and ears. The next day, a HOWR moved into the box. I concluded the HOWR attempted to remove the nestlings by their necks which killed them. I concluded the parents moved to the next box in the line to attempt another nesting. Jay Gilliam Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:44:32 -0400 These babies looked very good. They had big bellies, and were clean looking.. the nest was very clean.. I think that something scared the parents off or killed them and the babies died of hypothermia.... -Theresa"at"BowEcho.com In some cases (in my opinion) nestlings die because the parents
do Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:45:55 -0400 The HOSP has been gone since a few days before the babies hatched. I don't know where he went. Maybe he felt unwelcome because I kept shooting at him... I have not seen a HOSP for the past few days, at least since the babies hatched. -Theresa"at"BowEcho.com Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 19:06:47 -0500 Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas 120 miles East and a little north of Dallas Texas, high of 102*F and we can sink 1" pipe to a depth of about 4 feet by simply dropping them in cracks in the dry ground :-) I believe Jay is right again and that these baby birds died first and then the parents moved off. You have to realize that baby birds will have a bowel movement almost everytime they are fed or about every 20 minutes. If the parents die first or abandon the young the nest will become piled with droppings in a very few hours. If you have ever fed young birds you would be amazed at the number of diapers you need to remove in a single day!!! IF the birds died of high heat in the nestbox the flesh of unfeathered birds will become a sickly yellow tinged a very light greenish color. On the other hand if they die of cold they will still be a bright pink. The heat actually will cook them and change the color of the skin. It is most important to examine the nest closely to see if there are any droppings in the nest for if there are not then the young birds died first! Now you need to look to see if heat, cold or a totally different reason is responsible for their deaths. We have to realize that these birds die from a multitude of reasons and many different factors can sometimes contribute to death in the nestbox. KK Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:20:08 -0400 Haleya Priest Amherst MA Ok Jay and KK, et al - help me solve this mystery of dead babies: I brought a teenager out on the trail. We opened a box to find one baby that had just hatched - looked healthy and happy, 2 eggs that had the first poke holes of the babies coming out (could see the dark of the babies), and one egg with the poke hole started, but not complete. Poke hole was at the correct angle - starting from inside of the egg. Everything looked perfect and of course what a miracle to behold for this teenager! I came back 4 days later to find EVERYTHING just as it was - it was if time stopped, except the baby was dead and shriveled up but in the same exact spot we saw it in. The eggs weren't any farther along than when we had left. In fact, everything looked exactly the same. I mean EXACTLY the same. The babies had no emerged anymore from the eggs - the holes were not any bigger. Obviously the parents had abandoned - but when and why!? It was NOT an excessively hot day. Nothing looked wrong at all with the nest, etc. It was actually quite shocking to find it like this. Also the weird thing was there was no decomposition (except the baby was shriveled up), flies, beetles or anything to make it look "normal" after death sets in...... H Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 22:09:35 -0400 Hi Haleya & All: At this point we must assume parent(s) were present w/hatching of first baby as you do not mention presence of empty shell. Did you see any parents during the 1st visit? I have found when monitoring trail with a "novice" it is easy to lose that unique sensitivity to surroundings when teaching the beginner,I tend to address what is seen & explain that particular nest activity. It is possible you might have missed seeing a vital clue; ie., parents chirping? Was there any spraying in your area for West Nile virus or gypsy moth that particular day? That scene must have been weird when you expected to see 4 day old nestlings. Betty Nichols, Middletown, MD Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 22:57:05 -0400 Hi Betty: Good questions...... NO parents chirping - that agitation that something is wrong really stands out. No parents seen. In fact she often won't flush. But yes, I might have missed something - because this was sort of one of those amazing moments to show someone. 1/2 of the egg was consumed - so that is good info - she HAD to have eaten the other 1/2. And of course the 1/2 was still present 4 days later. In terms of West Nile or Gyspy moth spraying. This WAS on a golf course - but my two other active nests nearby were fine. And I THINK that the manager would have told me because he loves the bluebirds. Plus there is a community right next to the box - and so there are probably rules against that sort of thing - plus I haven't heard of any of that spraying in our community or town whatsoever. And yes, it was VERY wierd. Like spooky. :-) H Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 02:57:12 -0400 Imagine this: It is 11:30 PM, two days before you and the teenager arrive at the nest box to look at the eggs. A house cat that has been watching the box every night tries to jump up onto the box three times. The nest box is shaking violently from the cats efforts but the cat walks away without a meal. Three hours later at 2:30 AM a raccoon makes a brief attempt shaking the box again. At 4:30 AM on the way back from its nightly prowl the cat goes by the nest box again and gives his jumping skills another shot and it gets high enough this time to swat the nest box. The cat gives up for the night but both the cat and the female bluebird knows it is getting closer to the box. The next morning the male bluebird flies towards the box to give the incubating female a cricket it just caught. It lets out a loud chatter when it sees a house sparrow sitting on the box and the male and female bluebirds engage in a brief battle with the house sparrow but are successful in defending the box. The house sparrow comes back two more times during the day and perches twenty feet away and the bluebirds watch closely for an indication the house sparrow will try to take the box again. Instead the house sparrow moves on. At 10:00 AM you or someone else opens up the nest box to see if the eggs have hatched while the male and female watch from a nearby tree. At 10:30 AM while perched twenty feet up on a tree branch watching for insects on the ground which the bluebirds can see at distances of 70 feet or more, the female bluebird watches a snake slither in the grass towards the nest box but the snake turns in and heads in another direction. From 11: 00 AM to 11:30 AM the bluebirds watch a second cat stare down the nest box from 50 feet away. With the exception of the House Sparrow that flies past every once in a while, the rest of the day is relatively calm. At 11:00 Pm the owner of the first cat lets his pet out for a night time stroll and it makes a bee line for your nest box. The cat again tries to jump up onto the box. It still is not successful but the female bluebird is threatened by the shaking nest box again. The second cat just happens to arrive on the scene and the two cats do their shrill screaming thing within 20 feet of the nest box and barely avoid a territorial fight. At 12:30 AM a screech owl lands on the box only to perch momentarily. On the day you and the teenager come to the nest box the bluebirds have another confrontation with house sparrows and the cat is staking out the box again for a while. You and the teenager approach the box and the bluebirds associates you with the teenager that killed its mate three years ago. You open the box and express the wonder and excitement with
the teenager and before you close the box the male and female
bluebirds fly over the tree Do you think this is possible? Gary Springer Writing from the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains in
Northeast Georgia, further north than most of South Carolina
and a bit of North Carolina. Most extensive source of Bluebird information http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/bestofbbml/bblindx.htm Real Bird Homes www.realbirdhomes.com Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 07:54:22 -0400 ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- Hi Haleya and All: I believe it is safe to assume the female was caught by a predator (a hawk?) on exiting the box with the first 1/2 of the egg shell. Remember how busy the female was at the Antietam nestcam hatching? She kept turning the eggs w/her beak and was in and out of the box frequently. She was probably not cautious when exiting the box with the 1/2 egg shell due to the excitement. Since she did not return, the second half remained. In four days the helpless male would have left. Betty Nichols, Middletown, MD Hi Betty: Good questions...... NO parents chirping - that agitation that something is wrong really stands ... Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 07:17:04 -0500 Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant Texas Gary and Betty both put up some pretty good points on this one. Remember these are all guess's as we really won't know what happened. It is a recorded fact found out through banding that adult bluebirds WILL abandon eggs or extremely young birds [under 4 days of age and they are not bonded to their young as tightly as the following week] IF a predator stays near the nestbox even if it does NOT reach the box or harm the contents. On many occasions a snake trapped near the ground under a nestbox has caused the bluebirds to abandon the nestbox containing young birds. Some adults have been known to continue feeding young even when there was a live snake trapped within inches of the nestbox and there are many reports of bluebirds continuing to feed young birds even while a cat was sitting on the box roof swiping at the incoming and out going adults on every trip. It is probably safe to say that MOST bluebirds would NOT continue feeding if the cat were sitting at the pole waiting and watching. Since young birds are cold blooded then without the female brooding on even a relatively cool morning the young bird could have died of hypothermia and the ones pipping through their shells would become stuck in their chilled eggs and would not be able to continue to exit the egg. There is a remote possibility that your trip was indeed the final straw in a series of events but many other predators could have interfered with the adult female. In a case like this, banding is able to provide a few answers IF the female showed up in another box this year or next year then you could be certain that SOMETHING stayed near the box long enough to cause death of the young. KK Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:24:00 -0400 Hi Mandy and All: You have all winter to get ready to nail that predator, probably raccoon. You can do it! Under http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/nabs/rk1.htm you will find Ron Kingston's Snake/Predator Guard. (hope I got it right) On a poorly installed, neglected trail I am remodeling, (boxes
mounted on wooden posts have now been placed on metal pipes)
I have a box with this guard I made from the plans. The raccoons
that have been allowed to raid boxes for 2/3 yrs. had a rude
awakening -- there were scratches on the I applied grease to the stovepipe for good measure on seeing this near-calamity. The four bluebird babies just hatched and they are doing fine - no more attempts from the raccoon. You can make this guard easily, I am a 73 yr. old grandmother
and have developed some skill at making the guards. Betty Nichols, Middletown, MD Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:43:39 EDT Tom in Milton, Florida 30° 38' 33"N 087° 03' 32"W Eastern Bluebirds Haleya, What's the chances of a heavy dose of pesticide or other lethal chemical having gotten into the box, perhaps sprayed directly into it? . . . came back 4 days later to find EVERYTHING just as it was - it was if time stopped, except the baby was dead and shriveled up . . . The eggs weren't any farther along than when we had left. In fact, everything looked exactly the same. I mean EXACTLY the same. The babies had no[t] emerged anymore from the eggs - the holes were not any bigger. . . . . . . Also the weird thing was there was no decomposition (except
the baby was shriveled up), flies, beetles or anything to make
it look "normal" after Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:24:39 -0400 Haleya Priest Amherst MA Dear Betty, Gary, and KK: Thanks for your input and I am relieved it wasn't my breath! In all seriousness, moral of the story is that no matter HOW much we have the correct site location, good boxes, proper predator guards: "sh-t happens". And this is a perfect example of such. In this instance there is nothing I could have done to make this a safer place for my EABL to nest in ........ If my monitoring was the last straw, or some flying predator got mom as she was removing the first half of the egg - or some other unknown reason -these are truly things beyond my control. This is the true test of bluebirding in general: be grateful for the babies we HAVE fledged, improve the sites and boxes/predator guards that we can, keep monitoring, and make sure to keep our teeth brushed! :-) H Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:57:46 -0700 Dear Friends, Know our predator and the correct controls. Yesterday I recommended to David in Idaho that he try a concentrated "pepper solution" for dealing with a marauding bear that has been destroying his MOBB nesting boxes. Even though hand held "pepper sprays" have been effective for bear attacks on humans there is some speculation that the solution maybe or may not be effective on bears when applied to the mounting poles or nesting boxes. I've given David a few helpful suggestions on how to use it and test it on his bear so the jury is still out on this type of deterrent. However, my recommendation to David was based on the fact that I know a concentrated "pepper solution" would not be lethal to a bear and was intended for use on bears only. Bears have saliva glands and a bear after licking the concentrated "pepper solution" would be able to purge the concentrated "pepper solution" from its system after a short time. I've been getting e-mails of thanks for sharing this idea, but some of the mails seem to suggest "controlling raccoons" with a concentrated "pepper solution" and this is something that I do not support or recommend. Raccoons do not have saliva glands. A concentrated "pepper solution" can actually do harm or be lethal to a raccoon, as they have no way of purge a concentrated "pepper solution" from their systems (unlike bears). Please do not use a concentrated "pepper solution" on a predator that does not have saliva glands. There are other predator control methods for dealing with raccoons and I've listed a couple of my favorites below. Once again, know our predator and the correct controls. Happy Bluebird Trails To You, RON KINGSTON'S SNAKE/PREDATOR GUARD http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/nabs/rk1.htm Wood Duck (Figure 2 shows the Standard cone-shaped predator guard) http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/1999/woodduck/wdnbox.htm Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 23:06:05 EST From: carbocorwin"at"aol.com Subject: Re: clear plastic covered open top birdhouses Hey Linda, I do have three bluebird houses in Oklahoma on Grand Lake, I manage to raise some bluebirds there but not without fighting with the sparrows...I know I don't have the right kind of houses...WalMart specials... I would buy some if I thought it would help and where do I get them....?? I've just been doing this for two years.... so I have a lot to learn....It's moving toward March 1 and I'm edgy... I read all your Messages and learn a lot from them, I'm usually a silent member but I'm speaking up tonite....You helped me last year. Thanks, Car... Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 23:20:07 -0800 Linda Violett - Yorba Linda, Calif. If you didn't see any marks on your dead female, it's hard to say for sure whether she died from a sparrow attack (probably). If all you have is a typical Walmart box (no predator guards?) then, as you suggested, perhaps the box should be removed. Since there are bluebirds in your area, it would be a shame not to provide for them--where will they go? They will probably have to settle for another Walmart box somewhere else. Is there any chance you can build a 2-hole mansion for them? Even if you can't build it yourself, why not put out a call for help at the senior's community room--you can probably find an old-timer that would welcome the chance to build a couple of custom bird boxes; ask your neighbors. As a last resort, go to Home Depot's scrap bin and find some pieces at least 13" long (8" wide for the back and 6" wide for front and sides. This will give you a floor size of about 6" wide by 5" front to back. Home Depot will cut them for you for a nominal fee. Several weeks ago while monitoring the golf course trail, we were crossing a path and were hailed by a passerby. He explained he was a teacher and his class had built bluebird boxes "to spec" and his boxes didn't look anything like the 2-holers on our cart. I nodded and explained the extra hole was originally added to give the adults an escape from attacking house sparrows and, for some reason, give bluebirds an advantage in holding the box. "Oh," he said, "then we wouldn't keep getting dead females?" :{ A bluebird pair will invest months in a nest attempt--we should be providing good, safe boxes. From: Jgandy8580"at"aol.com After 5 days of excessive and unseasonable heat in south Jersey last week, my bluebirds went to egg laying. Weather immediately turned cold. One egg laid each day - Fri, Sat, and Sun. About 2 PM today I checked the box and the eggs are gone. No shells or pieces, and nest appears undisturbed. Haven't seen either parent today, but mealworms have been eaten both AM and PM. Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 13:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Hi all, I have learned a lot this year. Again I have entered the school of hard knocks on my Indiana trail where I have doubled the # of nestboxes this year. Too fast, too soon. I found two of the newly placed nestboxes were each missing an EABL egg. If you could see the design of these nestboxes (the nest is 6 inches from the entrance hole) you would know that only a snake could've gotten in there to take one egg. The remaining 4 eggs per nest and the nests appeared undisturbed. Both of these nestboxes were installed with snake guards in areas that get somewhat overgrown. I can only speculate that with all of the rain we have been getting things have been growing gangbusters for the past month. I believe that the snake used nearby brush and tall weeds to by-pass the snake guard. I have never had snake problems before I began expanding my trail. That expansion has taken me nearer to areas that snakes frequent. These same areas do not have grass cut and brush trimmed. I cleared the area around the nestboxes and raised the snake guards. I need to scrutinize nestbox location more closely for now on. Have a good day Bob Sitarski a.k.a The Doctor Jackson County Indiana ( 385244N 086023W ) & Clay County Illinois ( 384008N 0882908W ) From: "Randy Jones" randyj"at"enter.net Heartbreaking. Was the nest undisturbed? Too cold, probably, for a snake. My guess would be a wren. Where is your nestbox located? Close to trees, bushes, or out in the open? The only other possiblity I can think of is human vandalism. Other predators (cats & raccoons) mess up the nest. You have my deepest sympathies. Randy Jones Message-ID: 7e.265f630b.29f5e260"at"aol.com Last year bluebirds nested in box #1 and house wrens in #2 after I drove HOSP away. This year I couldn't drive HOSP away from #1 so bluebirds nested in #2. I finally got Van Ert trap and set it in #1. Bluebirds laid 3 eggs, which disappeared today. Most who replied suggested snake, but I felt it was too cold last few days for snake activity. Last response was from brdbrain suggesting the house wren, and the light bulb went off. I don't know my bird songs, but yesterday I had been unable to spot a bird that was singing prettily in nearby trees. Then I realized that if wren did it, bluebirds were likely to try again at #1, since HOSP hadn't been around for several days - and the Van Ert trap was set in #1. I dashed outside and, sure enough, the trap was sprung! I put clear plastic bag over house and opened the side and the male bluebird came tumbling out. I'm afraid this last event may prove to be too much for them. From: Theresa Brandt Theresa"at"Bowecho.com whoops.. my "mailer" just does as it pleases sometimes.. i went out to check on my BB house that had two eggs in it
over the weekend.. NO eggs! I looked on the ground.. found the
remains of one shell.. probably 3/4 of the shell on the ground..
I am now on full alert. Would someone please send me a link
to the rotating HOSP trap? From: hubertrap"at"webtv.net (Joe Huber) Missing Bluebird eggs already? Is it to early for House Wrens in Indiana? They are famous for removing eggs from a nest. Don't think snakes remove one egg and leave the box, think they stay and eat them all. If you have a House wren problem,more eggs may come up missing and soon you should see the wren at the box. Best of luck, Joe Charter member NABS, Charter member OBS, Life member OBS
Joe Huber From: "Karen Louise Lippy" brdbrain"at"superpa.net Doctor, From: DebSchind"at"aol.com thursday when I checked my bb box, the nest was perfectly in place, but all five eggs were gone. When I looked on the ground, I found all five shells broken. Needless to say I was heartbroken. Have not had this happen before. Last year I had a problem with HOSP, and I successfully trapped and relocated five males. Have not seen any HOSP at bb boxes (I have two) this year. So I don't know what happened. I would welcome any advice. From: "paul kilduff" plkldf"at"hotmail.com (Joe Huber) WROTE: Hi Deb and all, Eggs thrown out of nest is most often the
work of a On our trail we have had two HOuse SParrow eggs disappear, which you might not think is a bad thing. However, we'd like to know where they're going. My suspicions are: 1) The eggs were pierced by the monitor, and I suspect the HOSP may have recognized the piercing as a crack in the egg and disposed of it themselves. That would be okay as long as the HOSP don't take it out on surounding TRee SWallows or EAstern BLuebirds. 2) A HOuse WRen is carrying them off. My question is, in this case, does the HOWR usually leave a calling card in the form of sticks? Or does he just remove the eggs? 3) A snake is getting past the 4" PVC guard. I have no big problem with snakes eating HOSP eggs, but if snakes are getting past our PVC guards we need to know that. This may be one for a well-monitored Krueger trap, to use as an indicator that the 4" PVC guard is not effective. Any thoughts? Do HOSP carry off eggs that they recognize as cracked? Do HOWR leave sticks in nests that they empty? Paul Kilduff, Baltimore MD USA From: hubertrap"at"webtv.net (Joe Huber) Hello Paul and all, House Wrens remove other birds eggs with out leaving any evidence, with returning to use nest themselves in mind. After the nesting bird abandons the Wren will come and carry sticks into the box. Yes a HOSP may remove a damaged egg from its own nest. A House Wren can also remmove a HOSP egg from their nest in an attempt to takeover box. The absence of sticks doesn't mean Wrens are not responsible for missing eggs. snakes generally enter the nest and stay to eat all the eggs,and remain there a day or more afterwards. Joe Huber Venice, Fl. Charter member NABS, Charter member OBS, Life member OBS Joe Huber From: "D. H. Snook" dhsnook"at"sssnet.com Hi List, It is not a snake since 3 remain. It is not a vandal, since the nest is in my back yard and is observed regularly. It is not a House Wren, since the nest is not fouled from egg leakage. The HOWR put some sticks in before the eggs were laid and the EABL removed all of the sticks. The HOWR did not come back. Could it be that the EABL's removed the egg for some reason? The female is now brooding the remaining 3 eggs. D. H. Snook/Sondra R. Snook Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 20:18:08 -0400 Haleya Priest Amherst MA From: "CJ Hazer-Missouri" CeeJaaHzr"at"starband.net HELP! I'm at a loss over our loss. Yesterday afternoon we did a nestcheck. Six EABL's all nice & toasty. Mama & Papa watching us closely. Nest was free of parasites. Today, only three (3) EABL's. No evidence of a struggle. The Mama & Papa are still with the nestlings. They are 9 days old today. Questions: #1-Could three (3) babies die in the night & would the parents carry them away? #2-What could have gotten them otherwise (box on tree with no predator guard). #3-If it was a snake, am I to assume it will be back tonight? #4-If it was a snake, should I move the nest into the nestbox I intended them to use with the predator guard NOW! #5-What happened here? #6-WHAT SHOULD I DO...!!! These last three (3) are obviously very healthy and we don't want to lose them. I had decided to move the nest to the nestbox with predator guard right away. But my husband wonders if we did if the parents would abandon them. He said, "Maybe we should let nature take its course." The nestbox is on a tree 15-20ft from our house. We figured since a snake (this is really the only predator we're concerned with) didn't get any of the eggs, then the box was too close to human quarters for them to come this close. But I'm obviously wrong. IF IT WAS a predator at all. What experience does this list have with dwindling nestlings? I've researched several Bluebird sites for an answer. PLEASE help us with your knowledge. So Sad & Confused in Farmington, Missouri (60 miles south of St. Louis) CJ & Doug Hazer From: "Jim Alexander" alextree"at"rochester.rr.com We have had a somewhat similar thing happen with our babies. Mama had five eggs, and last Thursday when we peeked, we saw babies, but it was a rainy day, and we didn't look long enough to count how many. The nest is 30-40 feet from my "computer desk window", so I am able to keep pretty good track of the comings and goings. As I said, Thursday was rainy all day, not a good day for bug catching, and I didn't see the parents going in and out as much as they did last year. Friday was windy, again not a good day I would think for bug catching. I saw some activity but not much. Saturday morning was great, both parents going in and out frequently. Saturday afternoon I realized I hadn't seen the parents lately. I checked -- NO eggs, NO babies. I was really puzzled by this, and wondered if the babies died from lack of food. Then Sunday morning, as I was looking out the window, I watched a starling go in the box! Now, I had watched them try before, but never make it. (This is a Peterson box with the oblong hole.) The starling had to try several times to get back out, and I haven't seen it back since. I'm wondering if the starling got the babies the day before. Mary Lou From: "Bruce Burdett" blueburd"at"srnet.com CJ, et al, I think that the consensus on this list is that houses should be either mounted on free-standing poles or hung from tree-branches. Putting houses on trees invites several kinds of predation: 'coons, cats, snakes, squirrels, chipmunks, possums, etc. I try, whenever possible, to mount houses 100 feet+ out in some sort of clearing, chiefly to avoid House Wren interference. From: "Karen Louise Lippy" brdbrain"at"superpa.net CJ, I suspect a starling, grackle, blue jay or other bird did this very thing to the chicks. The others were perhaps too frightened to go close to the hole after this and have been fed inside by the adults. It is possible the bird which took the chicks could return. But it may have given up when it could not reach the other chicks. This is the only scenerio I could think of to account for the missing chicks. Karen from South Central PA From: "Keith & Sandy Kridler" kridler"at"1starnet.com Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas a muggy 72*F Blowflies: No interest although I have found two nests in my yard with some pupa this year. Terry Whitworth was mentioned by the attending "Cornell Ambazzzdor" and the need for "other than bluebird" nests for Terry's research. Peterson box: One new bluebird lady uses a couple of them and asked how to keep eggs and young from falling out of the box when you open it. It was also noted that wasps tend to build under the box and you make the wasps mad when you open the box and the front moves their nest! Check for wasp nests under the box before you open it and be more careful opening the box or change box styles. Bumble bees: No interest although I have three boxes with bumble bee nests already which I will leave for the year. Mice: weren't considered a problem since removing them once or twice makes them relocate. Hanta Virus was mentioned. House Wrens were a non issue. Raccoons: I offered a free Ron Kingston sheetmetal guard to anyone having predation by these animals. Two people had lost one nest each and the group was surprised at this many. Only one wanted to go to the trouble of installing this guard. Remedy:Keep the box mounted to metal poles, apply grease to the pole and install a Ron Kingston guard, live trap the offending animal and remove from the gene pool. Starlings:Not a problem with bluebirds there as most use 1&1/2" entrance holes and deeper styles of nestboxes. Shallow boxes and oval holes as mentioned by about four people in the northeastern states yesterday are a problem as these are predators when they are seen removing young bluebirds from boxes. Flying squirrels:Several have these but they really weren't considered pests although they are bluebird predators and competitors on a small scale. Mount boxes on metal pipe with grease on the pole and about 100 feet away from the nearest tall tree or power pole. Cats: Mostly an adult bird problem and at bird feeding/watering
areas. Snakes:Still not a major problem but mount the box on metal pipe away from brushy areas and weed infested fence lines. Grease the pole for an indicator that you have a snake problem big enough to warrant the expense of guards and if so install the Ron Kingston guard and above that use the Harry Krueger snake trap made from the plastic bird netting. If one crosses all of this then cut it loose and release it. Fire Ants: Only a problem in the southern 2/3 and eastern 2/3 rd's of the state. For a distant trail. Apply either Amdro or Logic fire ant killer (bait type) within about 10 feet of the box and then only about a teaspoon per weekly box check. Spot treat large mounds with another teaspoon full if they are within about 30 feet of the box. Amdro is a slow acting poison, Logic (apply only once a month) takes up to 6 weeks to work as it is a hormone based fire ant queen sterilizer the foraging ants need to die out of natural causes to reduce the number in the mound. Other brand names are available with the same ingredients. A Very hot gallon of water with a teaspoon of dish soap poured on mounds will eliminate most of these ants with one application for those protecting a couple of boxes in a back yard. Keep the boxes mounted on metal pipe and apply grease that is THINNED with a small amount of turpentine, check this weekly to be sure it is still sticky. Wasps:Soap the inside of the roof but most of the members preferred to use putty knifes to scrape out the nest or use long handled cooking spatulas. Most just removed the nest repeatedly and didn't even kill the wasps. Some use the caged bird sprays for quicker safer kills and wasp repelling that lasts a couple of days. By leaving a ventilation slot instead of holes drilled in the sides will allow you to see if a wasp nest is attached to the roof BEFORE you have to open the box. One lady who was allergic to bee stings simply cut the wasp nest loose through the slot without opening the box. Weather: Install rain tight boxes and light colors for less heat, make sure they have ventilation and shade them in the afternoon in late summer. Add a double roof/side in full sun. House Sparrows: Nearly EVERYONE in the room raised their hands
on this problem, the ones who did not were normally with their
mate! THIS is WHY House Sparrow debate keeps coming up and up
and up on this list. ALL other predators and problems can be
solved with a simple sentence or two but NOTHING works even
50% of the time when dealing with these sparrows. No two sparrows
act or do the same thing. Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 16:41:25 -0400 Hi Everyone, I joined the list today and see some familiar names (e.g., Wendell and Gary). I have a few situations and would appreciate your valuable input. We have a box close to the house that is setting on a 3/4 inch pipe with grease on it. We had 5 EABB chicks. I noticed that they were just sitting on the box "staring at each other" everytime I looked in that direction. Around 9 a.m. I went to check the box and it was empty. I started looking around and found 3 chicks on the ground; one was moving its mouth. I picked them up and cradled them in the palms of my hands. I began to blow warm air on them. Eventually all three were moving. I put them back into the box. It took about 15-20 minutes for the female to enter the box. They are now feeding them. Two questions: What do you think the prognosis is for the chicks? What would have removed them from the nest? Snakes or raccoons would have eaten them, right? We have NO HOSP at our house. Any ideas? The other situation is going on at another location that we monitor where we have two boxes. My mother-in-law gives me daily reports. Last year the bluebirds used one box and the tree swallows used the other box. This year the same thing WAS happening. There were 4 EABB chicks in the one box and a completed tree swallow nest in the other box. Yesterday, 3 of the chicks were gone and one was on the ground. This box is on a galvanized pipe. We removed the nest. Over the weekend, HOSP evicted the swallows and began building a nest. She removed the HOSP nest and covered the box. I was concerned that if they didn't have access to this box, then they would go after the bluebird box. She uncovered the box. Yesterday she saw them at the box after a swallow had entered. She went down and checked the box and found a warm but dead swallow. She is in her 70s and was very upset. She's bn trying to remove the HOSP. I printed information about the Huber trap from the internet. Can I purchase this locally? Any additional thoughts? I realize from the few Messages posted recently that the discussion of HOSP has been ongoing, however, I wasn't on the list to hear your comments. If you want to email me directly with your personal thoughts that would be ok so that we don't bog down the list with a lot of repeated information. Again, I look forward to learning from you all. Patty Haught, Fairview, WV (90 miles south of Pittsburgh) PAHaught"at"mail.wvu.edu (work address) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:27:39 -0700 (PDT) Hi. I subscribed to this list about a week ago and have gotten some really good information from the e-mails. Now, unfortunately, I have some questions of my own. I have two nest boxes that I set up outside my building at work. Last year, nothing but HOSPs. This year, I finally have a family in one of the boxes - three chicks. The other box I keep kicking out house sparrows. I just went and checked the boxes, and the 'unused' one had a couple days' worth of HOSP nest in it (it had feathers, at any rate, and I've seen HOSPs going in and out; didn't think they'd had enough time to build a nest though - I just got rid of a nest on Saturday afternoon). I lifted the nest out, and found a dead bluebird on it. I don't think it's been dead long, but I can't really tell for sure. I think it's a female - it has a brood patch (the males don't brood, do they?). I watched the other box for a while, and eventually one of the parents came to the box and went in. Could one of the HOSPs have come in with nesting material, found the bluebird there, and killed it? I don't honestly know what else could have happened to it. Any ideas? I'm not writing very coherently now, I know - it just happened and I'm still upset. Thanks, Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 21:01:16 -0500 Lynette... welcome to the list. About the unfortunate discovery in the nestbox (dead bluebird with nesting material on top of it). There is little doubt about it. Those HOSPs did it! Check the dead bluebird for bare areas and pecked areas on the head. That is how they kill them. Reminds me of a few years ago when my daughter was starting high school and her science teacher put out bluebird boxes around the perimeter of the school property. Tree swallows quickly took up residence in the two boxes near the tennis courts. The students in the teacher's class were "monitoring" the boxes fairly regularly- until Spring break. After the break, my daughter and I went to play some tennis and I noticed that HOSPs were controlling the boxes, not the tree swallows. Bad sign! Upon checking the boxes, we found typical trashy nesting material on top of TWO tree swallows, the male and the female! I asked my daughter to let the teacher know what had happened. Her good intentions were negated by not being vigilant against the sparrows. Don't give up! We all have disappointments, but our successes will outweigh those disappointments if you keep fighting for the bluebirds and other native cavity nesters. You will have to decide what to do with the sparrow problem. This list is constantly bringing up ways of dealing with house sparrows!! Me? I have no problem with trapping them and disposing of 'em. (I've seen for too many years what HOSPs do to our natives) You may have different ideas, so keep your eye on this list and you will get alot of information and help. Good luck! Bob in Muskego, Wi. From: hubertrap"at"webtv.net (Joe Huber) Hi Lynette, Your dead Bluebird is most likely the result of
an attack from the HOSP. You can check to see if any red spots
are on or around its head. When a HOSP nest is found near a
active Bluebird nest it is best not to remove the HOSP nest
as many times they take it out on other birds nesting near by.
I learned that you only remove a HOSP nest when you have eliminated
the HOSP. This way they cause no problem. Your male Bluebird
may find another mate so you better plan a way to handle the
situation in case. You can figure out what you want to do and
find advice on this list. Best Wishes From: Adthomas10"at"cs.com I donated a BB box approx. 8 weeks ago to a friend who got Bluebirds immediately. She just informed me that something threw the 4 babies out of the box onto the ground. Any ideas what would do that? Thanks From: hubertrap"at"webtv.net (Joe Huber) Hello Dan, The most likely thing to throw out baby Bluebirds would be a HOSP, if a larger bird done this they would have taken baby,s away from box area. Generally when this happens the HOSP are seen near the box, ready to move in. Joe Huber, Venice, Fl. Charter member NABS, Charter member OBS, Life member OBS Joe Huber From: "Randy Jones" randyj"at"enter.net Wrens and house sparrows both will do that. Randy Jones From: "Mrs. Marysue Meints" mamakitticat"at"earthlink.net My dear 3 baby bluebirds, the ones hatched on Mother's Day, were missing yesterday when I checked the box. I cried and cried for their loss. I did see some European Starlings, those dastardly beings, in the yard on Saturday. I kept an eye on them, and shoed them away several times, and was very upset when one PERCHED on the opening to the EABL box and looked inside. AUGH! After that I didn't see them around, but we did have to leave to go somewhere. I am assuming whatever happened, happened Saturday late afternoon/early evening, when I wasn't home. (We don't have House Sparrows here.) One egg was still in the nest, unhatched after a week that the others had hatched. So I cleaned the box out Sunday late afternoon. The weird thing, to me since this is my first EABL box and clutch, was that Mr. & Mrs. Bluebird were coming to the box all day Sunday as if they were feeding their babies. I didn't know until late afternoon that they weren't in the box! Well, I looked around as best as I could and found no evidence of the babies. They have to have been snatched on Saturday, nothing odd in particular was going on Sunday before I knew they were gone. I saw them last on Friday, warm and fuzzy, not even a week old yet. Mr. & Mrs. Bluebird are spending time going in and out of the box, and fending off other birds still. No sign of new nest building yet, but all the flapping wings of them both, I expect that's what they'll be doing soon. Well, I'm so sad that our first clutch was so promising and then such a failure. :-( We also had House Finches nesting in a hanging basket on the front porch. They made the nest, promptly laid an egg on a Sunday, and one on a Monday, and then abandoned the nest. :-( That was our first failure and it's seemingly setting the tone. I see now that a pair of Northern Mockingbirds have built a nest in our newer Maple in the front yard. Haven't seen further activity though ... oh well. Other birds have been successful though, as there are (seemingly for all their chattering and flapping!) myriads of baby House Finches coming to our feeders. And I saw Mr. & Mrs. Cardinal and their two babies in our yard yesterday. Fingers crossed now that Mr. & Mrs. Eastern Bluebird will build a new nest in the box, and lay and set and hatch and fledge some babies! Marysue In The South NE Georgia From: "Karen Harder" karenh"at"praxisworks.org Last Thursday I checked my neighbor's box which I knew bluebirds had built a beautiful pine needle nest in. I talked all the way to the box, and Mama bluebird flew out when I tapped on it. I looked in and was absolutely thrilled to see 5 beautiful blue eggs. I closed the box quickly and left. Sunday morning I watched a pair of bluebirds and a pair of tree swallows having a vigorous but not alarming fight at my own "paired"* boxes. By Sunday afternoon the fighting had petered out to a comfortable level of occasional buzzing, while the TRES continued their building in one box and the EABLs began what appeared to be moving into the other box. Having been aware of only 1 pair of bluebirds in the vicinity (the pair at my neighbor's), I was thrilled to have another pair move into one of my boxes, where I can watch them all the time! By the next day (yesterday), however, it had occurred to me that maybe this was the same pair and that something tragic had happened next door. I couldn't get over there till this morning, and sure enough, as I approached the box I saw dry grass messily sticking out of the hole. I didn't see any bluebirds near the box, and none flew out. I opened it and found a wad of long dried grasses piled all the way up to the hole, on top of the bluebird nest with the 5 whole cold eggs still in it. I was heartbroken. The added grasses had just been stuffed into the box. There was nothing about it that resembled a nest of any sort, or even a nest-in-the-making. Not even a messy HOSP nest. It was just a loose, open bunch of grass, obviously never having had any weight on it from a bird or mouse. From all that I've read on the List, I think I can completely
rule out We have had a horrible infestation of blackbirds this year, though, which we've never had before -- red-wings and common grackles. And there is a pair of white-breasted nuthatches nesting in a box about 20' from the bluebirds' house. Could any of them be the culprits? We are also besieged by chipmunks, red and gray squirrels, and mice. Between Thursday, when all was well, and Sunday, when the bluebirds began their new nest, we had lots of cloudy, showery weather with a total of 9/10" of rain, and temperatures from 36-68degrees, till Saturday night when it got down to 32, so I wouldn't think they abandoned the eggs, leaving the nest for someone else to move in on. (It has always been perfectly dry when I've checked it.) Another detail here is that the 1 1/2" hole had obviously been worked on a bit over the winter, probably by a woodpecker, but still isn't more than 1 9/16" I'd say. Its mounting, however, is a problem. It's on a square wood fencepost 5' high, with no predator protection. Other than the small mammals I've already mentioned, I'm not aware of there being any predators here that would approach from the ground, so even though my own boxes are reasonably well protected, we weren't too worried about my neighbor's lack of protection. Last year, this box fledged 3 baby bluebirds, with no problems. Also last year, however, there was a great-horned owl's nest about 25' away! I would imagine that could have had some effect on the small mammal population. Anyway, do any of you have any ideas what might have ruined this nesting? I certainly want to prevent it from happening again if I can. I'm sitting here watching these precious blues working so hard on their new nest as I type, and I can't bear the thought of this one coming to grief as well. Thanks for any and all ideas. Karen Harder -- Cape Porpoise, Maine *Pairing in this case means the 2 boxes are about 30'-35' apart, which I know is not pairing as far as some of you are concerned. Last year and early this spring they were 15' apart and only 1 was used last year, by TRES. When the one pair of bluebirds I knew to be in the vicinity started building at my neighbor's this year and 3 pairs of TRES were fighting viciously over the paired boxes, I moved one of the boxes to 30' or so, in hopes that 2 pairs of TRES would nest. But only one did, leaving the second box empty for the bluebird pair to move into. Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 23:01:36 -0500 In one BB box, there have been two successful nestings so far; however, I think the current baby BB are in trouble (may only be one). About three weeks ago, I counted 6 BB eggs. Then when I noticed the parents delivering food on a regular basis, I checked again and found only one weak baby. The parents have been going back and forth with food, and I looked inside and noticed that the baby still seemed weak and was not alert. It has not been excessively cold, but I am afraid that this nesting may be unsuccessful and the baby will not make it. I have not seen any HOSP inside or near the house. Actually there was one male that was harrassing the purple martins. He is very trap savvy and difficult to catch, but has not been around much for the past two days. I have a feeling that the baby blue may not make it. Also, I saw an intact BB egg inside. Is it possible that the baby blue tried to fly out and was attacked by a mocking bird. I saw one hanging around the box and it actually tried to look inside. I will keep you posted. This is the first time that this has happened in a three year period. Any ideas? Sharon Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 21:18:24 -0700 Sorry to hear about the death of your little chickadees, they are the neatest little things. Sounds like you are right about a cat being the culprit.. The cat must have jumped and caught her while she was leaving or entering the house or feeder . I have heard that they can jump up to seven feet vertically. The chickadees out here rarely if ever will go down on the ground and usually will not even go down on my deck. I have a live trap I use and transport any transgressors a long way off, usually in the industrial area of town, where they will get a crash course in survival of the fittest. Tom Long paul kilduff wrote: Paul Kilduff, Baltimore MD From: "Bruce Burdett" blueburd"at"srnet.com To: Bluebirders in General, Vanished eggs is (are) a new experience for me, and I have
never seen a snake at any of my 'sites' in ten years of bluebirding
in NH. From: hubertrap"at"webtv.net (Joe Huber) Hi Bruce, Do you have House wrens in your area? Both House Wrens and HOSP can pick up an egg and carry it out of the box fly some distance and drop it. They don't need to puncture the egg to pick it up. People can also remove eggs. It,s not always snakes that remove them with no trace or disturbance of nest. Joe Huber Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 22:59:30 -0400 Bruce Burdett wrote: To: Bluebirders in General, ... My first instinct would be to answer "House Wren".
That is what happened to the first two TRES eggs laid in one
of my nestboxes last year, and I know it because I saw the wren
make a further attempt on the nest. Only by that time the TRES
had become wiser, if sadder, and ran him off. They succeeded
in laying/hatching/fledging three more eggs in that box. Nestbox Predator ID (Part 3) |
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