Nestbox Monitoring (in general) Part 1

Also see: Aggression, Cleaning out Old Nests, Monitoring Frequency, Monitoring Equipment and Nestboxes Abandoned by Humans

From: Bruce Burdett [mailto:blueburd"at"tds.net]
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: head count

Deane,You have two options: 1.) Active - Just take each chick out, gently and quickly, and count them. It won't faze them. A wing is the handiest thing to lift them by, and it's good to have something like a shoebox handy, with clean cloth in the bottom. If possible, have an assistant hold the box. 2.) Passive - If you can't bring yourself to do Option One, count the beaks as best you can. Usually each bird's beak and nostrils are at the top of the heap so it can breathe.        

Remember that trained, licensed biologists routinely inspect, inoculate, band, and run tests on nestlings, including blood and skin samples. Sometimes blowfly larvae have to be pulled off. When the chicks are returned to the nest, life goes on as before.        

With Option One, act quickly, deliberately, quietly, and as gently as possible. Bruce Burdett, NH Bluebird Conspiracy, Sunapee NH

From: Bruce Burdett [mailto:blueburd"at"tds.net]
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: head count

Deane,             

As you may have been told by now, at least one person is of the opinion that one must never handle nestlings.             

I suggest that you read up on the subject yourself and draw your own conclusions.             

For my part, I have no reason to believe that careful, gentle handling harms the young birds. Bruce Burdett

From: Kate Arnold [mailto:bbnestbox"at"1starnet.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 10:38 AM
Subject: Counting Babies

Very young chicks are difficult to count, but rather than disturb them, I know I will get a good count during a later nestbox check when they are a little bigger. Even though they lay still, their individual beaks and bodies are easier to make out when they are older. I personally wouldn't lift a young bird by its wing, but would support its body if it were necessary to lift it. Kate Arnold Paris, TX

From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com]
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 8:32 AM
RE: head count

I may be wrong, but I count the day after they hatch as day 2. We count out birthday as day one. Yes, they do sleep on top of each other sometimes. I gently lift one up to count them. That does not bother them one bit. I had to do it at one nestbox last nesting cycle because everytime I checked them they were in that position. ... Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA

From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot"at"mtco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 1:14 AM
Re: Beautiful BB Morning

Evelyn, You know, I always felt guilty about checking fledglings past day 13 - but whenever the parents were acting weird, I would check older chicks. Also check them about day 17, just to make sure that everything is okay for their fledging. LOL, Sure was relieved when Keith said that he didn't understand where the "day 13" ruling came from. I am very careful, but with top opening boxes, nestlings have never offered to prematurely fledge. And if a curious walker happened to open a nestbox full of 17 day old babies, I feel that they would be safer in a top opening box than a side or front opening box. This might just be wishful thinking on my part. Thank goodness, that we live in a wealthy nation where monitors can have such a wide choice of nestboxes, that every monitor can find the best nestbox for his/her situation. Dottie Roseboom Peoria IL (central - zone 5)

From: BKeane64"at"aol.com [mailto:BKeane64"at"aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 9:35 AM
Re: Nesting Question

Thanks for letting me know not to check the box at Dusk . I will make sure I don't anymore . What is the least stressful time for the birds ? Best B Keane Gales Ferry , Ct

From: JOHN & BARBARA SIBIO [mailto:jsibio"at"comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 10:08 AM
Re: Nesting Question

I usually check mine in the afternoon. I watch the box for a while, and make sure the female is not in there with the chicks. Then I quickly look in to make sure all is well and quickly close it back up! Usually the pair is sitting nearby in the oak tree watching me, and I want to stress them as little as possible (chicks too). Our here, for me, between one and three PM seems to work well. The chicks are usually well fed and taking the afternoon siesta! Best wishes with your nest! Barbara in Cloverdale, CA

From: Paula [mailto:PaulaZ"at"columbus.rr.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 10:13 AM
Re: Nesting Question

The absolute least stressful time is when you have observed the female leave for her break. Then just peek away. This is pretty easy to do if your EABL are nesting in your yard because you can observe them easily. On the trail, though, I have 20 boxes and check them only once a week. If Mom is in there, I end up scaring her off of the nest. Sometimes, she just sits there and then I leave her be - not that important for me to count the eggs or whatever. Usually she flies out which is fine - anytime during daylight hours when the weather is not rainy or cold is a good time to monitor a box in my opinion. If you can wait until she takes her break, this is the absolute best time. Paula Z Powell (Central) Ohio

From: Haleya Priest [mailto:mablue"at"gis.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 2:41 PM
Subject: Best x to check nests Haleya Priest Amherst MA

Sounds like there are many different opinions - if the box is within an easy view then "when the female is off the nest" is also my vote on best time to check a box. That way I'm not scaring her by opening the box while she is "trapped" inside. If the box is on my trail, I don't have time to wait till she is off the nest and I simply walk toward the box and say the same thing each time so she knows I am coming. They often learn to vacate the box before I actually get to the box with this method. Some won't flush no matter what I do - and for those it is either come back later or gently pick them up and check the eggs then set them back down, or pick them up and then release them once I have them out of the box. :-) H

From: Maynard R Sumner [mailto:m-r-sumner"at"juno.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 1:03 PM
Subject: Re: Nesting Question

I find that 10 a m is the least stressful for my birds. Maynard Sumner Flint, MI

From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 7:36 AM
Subject: Unmonitored Nestboxes

I have a neighbor that has two nestboxes on fence posts. They also have a perch on the nestbox in front of the hole. He never monitors them, never cleans them out. So, I decided this nesting season that I would check to see what goes on in an unmonitored nestbox. (he is a friendly guy and wouldn't be mad at me) One of the nestboxes is so far across a ditch and is grown up around it, I cannot get to it. The other one had a pair build, lay two eggs and when I checked it, ants had taken over the nest and the pair had abandoned the nest. I feel sure they took one of my nestboxes not far from it. I cleaned out the nest and on the next cycle, they built again. I checked it and it had two more eggs in it and bees or yellow jackets had taken over the nest and it had been abandoned. The pair came back to my same nestbox and built on their 4th attempt. (I feel this is the pair, as this is a new location for my nestbox and just across the pasture from his). I did not check his boxes but the two times and it sure told me what goes on in unmonitored nestboxes. Grease on the pole could have stopped the ants. However, there is no predator guard, and it would be a chance of luck if a snake did not get them. Putting the nestboxes on the fence (years ago) is the whole of his efforts in bluebirding. He has heard me numerous times talk about monitoring, but it goes through one ear and out the other. If frustrates me when I see that and see how the birds have to work extra hard to nest and raise their babies. This is the way some people help! Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA

From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 8:46 AM
Re:Working with Scouts Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas a cloudy, muggy morning at 66*F

OK for Eagle Scout awards they need to mainly show leadership skills and good paperwork. Talk with the scout master and explain the importance of monitoring and follow through....Parks are used very often by the same people everyday who are FORCED by doctor's orders to walk and walk and walk...for improvement of health conditions. Let us use the scouts and the people needing to walk and see if placing an article in the local papers showing the need for nestboxes and the need of the Eagle Scout requirements and the need for monitoring can be exploited to the benefit of everyone! The scout troops can build the boxes and flyers posted at Doctor's offices and rehab centers and health spas could be used to enlist people needing to walk everyday and teach them how to monitor the boxes. We were approached through another bluebirder this year for someone that was walking everyday in a city park. The city wanted nestboxes in the park, I did not want to check another 13 nestboxes but agreed to make and install them if someone would monitor. In May there were 11 active nests of bluebirds in the 12 nestboxes that were still up. August saw 4 nests of active bluebirds and Rex Amerson walked the trail nearly everyday. I walked the trail twice and Don Hutchings helped several times. Where would these 11 pairs of bluebirds nested without these new boxes? The park is the city of Mt. Pleasant girls softball park located on US HWY 67 and Edwards, surrounded by apartment buildings, trailer courts, industrial fabrication and car dealerships. Each year the scouts can rebuild the nestboxes and get out the posters and recruit new monitors if needed for more trails. Consider building and installing Barn Owl nestboxes as these require less intensive summer monitoring. KK

From: Shawn [ mailto:shawnee4"at"charter.net ]
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: lots of EABL

...Any advice on how to get a neighbor who has boxes up to monitor them? I offered to do it for her, but she didn't seem interested even in that.

...Shawn in TN

From: Elizabeth Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net]
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 8:46 AM
Subject: How to get a neighbor who has boxes up to monitor them

Shawn, I don't know if you got any replies to your question (I didn't see any posted in yesterday's digest), but here are a few ideas - I'm sure others have some good ones that I'd also like to hear, as mine didn't work yet on a nearby park that has a new bluebird trail that is not monitored.

1. Let them know you are collecting data to report to a bluebirding organization (whichever one you report to) and maybe they will let you monitor it for them. They can be part of the "trail." Sometimes folks can get excited about participating in a citizen scientist project.
2. Give them a short flyer (examples at http://www.sialis.org/handout.htm or http://www.bluebirdnut.com/bluebirdflyer.htm) that provides some more info.
3. Chat with them more about what happens in boxes that are not monitored.
E.g., paper wasps, snakes, house sparrows, etc. If they love birds, hopefully they will want to see them successfully nest.
4. Talk to them about how it will impact YOUR boxes if theirs aren't monitored (the guilt trip - works best on Catholics :-) E.g., if house sparrows (HOSP) breed in THEIR boxes, they may attack and kill eggs, nestlings and adult native birds nesting in YOUR boxes.
5. If you really like them, "gift" them a book on bluebirds to get them interested (if you think they'll read it) - Stokes or Zickefoose both did a small booklet. The Bluebird Monitor's Guide is for more serious folks, but has great fotos, and is only $10.47 at amazon.com. Toop's book "Bluebirds Forever" is pricier (16.07) but has good fotos and is sort of chatty.
Giving them such a nice present might also work to make them feel guilty enough to either monitor themselves or let you do it. :-)

There are some folks that absolutely refuse to do anything, including cleaning out the box once a year.

... Let us know what (if anything) works!

Bet from CT

From: Elizabeth Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:50 AM
Subject: Ideal trail monitoring sheet/log

[in response to a question about what the ideal trail monitoring/sheet or log would contain]

Hi Cher!  To me, the ideal trail monitoring log would capture all the data I need for input into both the NABS and TBN databases and my state bluebird society, with room for comments….  It would also enable me to do some end of year figuring.

I'm not sure which is better organization - by box, or by date.  I tend to track by box, and don't always get to all boxes on the same date.

For NABS -

Trail name
Trail manager
Address with cross streets
Total number of boxes monitored
How many are singled and paired
Distance between pairs
Number of boxes occupied by bluebirds
Numbe of successful eastern bluebird broods
Number of bluebird eggs laid
Number of eggs hatched
Number of chicks fledged
Number of house wren attempts
Methods used to discourage house wrens
Number of HOSP attempts
Number of boxes successfully used by TRES
Number of boxes successfully used by chickadees
Number of boxes used by other species (specify)
Mounting method for boxes
Predator protection and whether it worked
Nest box style (# installed, # used)
Interesting experiences, problems, comments
What other orgs data was reported to

For TBN - for some reason my lab ID is not working right now, so I can't get in.

Bet from CT

I was able to get into the Cornell TBN data gateway (after I used the CORRECT user name :-)  See below.

It might also be nice to have a page in a log book that lists addresses (web or snail mail) where data is reported, and due dates for data, and user name and passwords as I obviously keep forgetting mine.

I'd also like info on material box is made of (cedar, pine, etc.) whether and when it was weatherproofed (e.g. with stain so I remember when to do it again), cleaned out, a place to track any info on any data/temp. loggers, etc.

I'm also most interested in types of predator control (mono, sparrow spooker, etc.) and if they are put up and taken down, dates.

This is all probably way more than most people want to record….

*******************

TBN:They ask for the following info on their detailed entry form. 

INDIVIDUAL BOX INFO
Box "name" (can be a number), ID and descdription (for your own reference)
Lat and long for each box in decimal degrees (I got a GPS so I can capture this) or nearest cross road or zip or location on a topo map

Habitat Immediately Surrounding Box — The dominant landscape type immediately surrounding the nest box.
Secondary habitat - predominant within 1/2 mile of box.
Whether or not you own the property where box is located
Box info:  height of sides (in inches) and floor size (inside dimensions)
Box mount
Elevation and height of entrance hole above ground
Entrance hole size and shape
Box type
Predator control (type)

NESTING
Number of attempts
Date first egg was laid for each attempt
Blowfly evidence (larvae, pupae, etc.)
Bluebird egg color
Box activity (nest building, egg laying, nestlings present during nest attempt)

Fate of each nest attempt
Cause of failure
Comments or observations
Competitor species that attempted to use box (including squirrels etc.)
Final outcome of nest attempt
First egg date
Maximum clutch size (per nest attempt)
Number of unhatched eggs (per nest attempt)
Hatch date
Number of nestlings
Fledge date
Human activity/intervention (e.g., HOSP nest removal)

SPECIAL STUDY INFO:
Brand name (pesticide used near box and crop it was used on) and frquency of application and whether pesticides were applied within 100 feet, and type of pesticide

Fertilizers used iwithin 100 feet of box
Start month for pesticide/fertilizer use
Type of supplemental food provided, and when (never, before or during breeding season)

http://birds.cornell.edu/birdhouse/pdffiles/Daily_worksheet_2003.pdf Phil Berry

Is there one on the NABS website? Bet

From: NANCY HANNA [mailto:nancy.hanna"at"btinternet.com]
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 5:58 AM
To: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.eduSubject: Disagrees w/ monitoring and putting up boxes

...HELP!

I run a new BB nest box project in my local city and parkland.

I have a bit of a problem with someone who is a know it all on the board of directors for the park land I am working with who wants to put up a trail of boxes but does not think it is necessary to monitor the boxes! He did not show any interest until I created the program and started my trail. so I feel responsible for this. I was hoping it was all talk but now he is working on getting the boxes build ( they are not build right) and has a location near lots of homes where they might attract House Sparrows to the park lands.

Where do I begin? The boxes are poorly made, with out ventilation drainage, the floor is too small. The ones I find I convert and monitor myself as he make no provisions for he boxes to be monitored. Thus, they left to house sparrow.

. At this time I do not have a problem with House Sparrows on my trail. How do I convert him? Pictures of dead BB's killed by house sparrows? What can I do with him? No he does not, will not read nor does he seem show any interest in learning. I have given him nest box plans. I have know him for years.

I will be making a presentation/report next week and want to take care of this before it gets out of hand..

Any experience with dealing with this issue and a busy box putting up bee? He now puts up all sorts of boxes for all sorts of birds. Again without ventilation holes, drainage, etc and moves on! This could put my project and the birds in jeopardy. He has already put up a box in a park in a area with a large population of House Sparrow area, near homes and an area with Raccoons. The Blues are there so he put the box up without a thought to their making a success in nesting. I asked him who would monitor the box, about house sparrows, raccoons, etc. He never answered these questions, just build the box, placed it and walked away. I had to modify the box ( floor too small, no drainage, little ventilation, etc) and rehang the box. I now monitor the box. But it is really now on its way to being my first experience with sparrow trapping and dispatching. But I! worry about the birds being killed by house sparrows. I may just remove this box for now while I am in London.

He is a keen birder is very involved, but I gather he does not see the point of "babysitting" wild birds.

I started and run a program with my City to place boxes in a local park land. I have a trail of 40 boxes that I monitor myself. I am living in London for a year and have 3 kind and thoughtful people checking my trail and will train two more while I am home. I will be home for the month of April to sort this out and got a a meeting to stress my points before the local park board of directors and the City. Ah, again he is on the board. I would love others to join me and for the trail to grow, but with monitoring! There are 1000s of acres. But as head of the project I promised the City Park Manager and Ranger that boxes will not go up all over the area without care and promised the ranger, who is well informed that the boxes will be monitored. I took down and repaired all the neglected BB's boxes placed by well meaning box scouts for Eagle Scouts.

Who do I inform this guys thinking or shake him off putting up boxes and walking way? Clearly he is driving my mad and causing problems. And I will end up rebuilding and checking more and more of these this summer and next year! AHHHH!

Thanks!

Nancy, CA and London

You may not convince him to agree with you. It is the opinion of many that even if the boxes go unmonitored, it is better to have them up than not. you will find just as many tell you that it isn't worth putting boxes up unless they are strictly monitored. this list has a wide variety of opinions, as you might expect. IMHO there is no "correct" answer. in the end you will have to make the decision.
Phil Berry
Pensacola, Florida

Hi Phil:

Thank you for your reply. Ideally the boxes might be fine limited checking in certain areas, however, my concern here is 4 fold.

1. The City and wildlife ranger do not want un-monitored boxes falling apart in the City parkland's, as the creator of the program I answer to them. They put me in charge as there is limited staffing. Much red tape and project forms involved. If they get wind of nelected boxes it could put an end to the project.This is one of the requirements of my project to continue to go forward and hopfully, grow and expand. I replace many a grimly filled boyscout box last year. I find my boxes need some some of repair every season. Rain and heat are hard on wood.

2. The boxes are being placed in area with very high populations of House Sparrows and might lead to their area expansion, possibly into the the Parkland's where we currently do not have HS issues.
3.The boxes are not at all properly constructed, lacking ventilation in my location heat is an issue with Temperatures well into the 100's in the summers, no drainage, inadequate small floor space.
4. There is no protections or provisions for predation from Raccoons made.
It can be augured that this is setting up snack bars.

Thanks!

Nancy, Northern Ca

From: Christy [mailto:ke4fej1"at"email.msn.com]
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: Disagrees w/ monitoring could end project

Hi Nancy, It seems to me you have your answer, just not all the details.

1. You say the Ranger... Put YOU IN CHARGE
...Either get them to contact the person
.........Most people listen when a Ranger Talks
.........Have Rangers take down his boxes
.........Give you a letter of authority to act as you need
................Contact and get him to comply
................Or take down his boxes

(((Hmmmm for a quick fix..since he is not Monitoring his boxes, one might be tempted to go plug up the holes of his boxes.)))

Christy Sarasota FL

From: NANCY HANNA [mailto:nancy.hanna"at"btinternet.com]
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 11:01 AM
Subject: thanks monitoring under control

Chuck Jensen <cjensen"at"dts9000.com wrote:
Never fight 'em, just co-op 'em! I'm guessing the know-it-all has an attention span the width of a bird's beak. So, in your meeting, pile (as in piles of stuff in the barnyard) credit and thanks on him, then talk about how you've taken his great start and putting a few refinements on it. Unless he builds the boxes by hand himself, you should be able to intercept the box builder and have him use your plans. Don't bother trying to convince him of anything--just do it!

As for the Eagle Scouts, go to their leader and explain the problem. Scout leaders are usually pretty tolerant and understanding--or they would have quit a long time ago. Get the Leader to have one or two of his Bald Eagles Scout candidates develop a monitoring and maintenance program as their 'project'. Do you smell opportunity to influence things here???

Forget the prostelyzing and converting of the unwashed to the right way of living; leave that for the pulpit people on Sunday. What you have is a management problem. You just need to figure out how to manage these characters, preferably without their realizing it. Otherwise, it will be a painful experience for all and the most important, the birds will suffer.

Go get 'em...softly.

Chuck
***

Hi Chuck:
Sorry for the rant! He was driving me crazy.

Thanks. The main problem is all this is happening and while I am here in
London!! I will be home next week for a month and I am now well my way to getting things in hand. I just needed to vent to an understanding group! At the moment he has moved on to wood duck boxes. Yes, i handled things with care. I know his box builder I will give him plans at the meeting. But he is the type to make boxes at of everything and anything and show this to the public! I have see this work at fairs, oh well.

Nancy ...

Very good advice, Christy.

We found out that some of our LBBS project trails were not being monitored.
The wasps were allowed to take over the nestboxes and the one that did have babies, they did not monitor and remove the old nest for the second cycle.
One had a Starling nest in the box that the hole had been enlarged by something.

We do not go to all the expense, time and labor to provide homes for these predators!

Our board decided that we would definitely take down nestboxes that are not being monitored. We did take down seven 2 months ago that had not been monitored going into the second season and he had no plans to do it. He does not understand the need for it. I feel it was a learning experience for him and his has a doctorate. We went about it in a nice, but firm way.

We decided we would contact each project leader informing them of what we found. We also are having a contest for the project that does the best job of monitoring, maintaining, and reporting to LBBS and will give the award at our annual meeting. We will also do a write-up in all the papers in the state. If you could have some sort of contest for the group doing the best job of monitoring, it might create a little more enthusiasm for the job.

Our organization feels there are way too many nestboxes sitting out there now too full to use, rotting down or raising the predators we have to guard against.

I would definitely get the "word" from higher powers and present that to him.

Evelyn Cooper
Delhi, LA

Nancy, our organization will be three years old in May. This is all a new experience for all of us and we are learning as we go.

All of these trails that I am talking about are sponsored by LBBS. We have paid for the units on the trails. We write up a proposal/plan to present to them that we request they take them down if they cannot be monitored. Also, along with this letter we wrote just a few weeks ago, we had them sign a Pledge that they will monitor and maintain the trail faithfully, and return it to us. It counts for points on the judging for the award. Understand, these are not personal trails, but trails that we sponsor and are responsible for. What kind of Message would we give if the general public walks these trails and sees the nestboxes full of predators instead of bluebirds or native cavity nesters?

Yes, we visit these trails to see what is going on. I do not even have to report in at the gate at the state parks.

Believe me, when you take down nestboxes, they will get the Message.

One of our LBBS officers made the 100 mile round trip to retrieve the nestboxes. I am not saying the man was not somewhat ticked off. However, the subject came up on another list serve that he and a lot of others think you just hang the box anywhere and let whatever move in, but our Message was loud and clear there too. He is still a member of LBBS and he reported on that list serve of seeing bluebirds in another area of LA and mentioned me and LBBS in a nice way, so I think he has had his eyes open along with a few others.

The other project managers were just as nice and understanding as they could be and said they WANT to do it right. They are learning too!! They welcome our help!

Hold your standards high!

Evelyn Cooper...
Delhi, LA

From: bookfanaticef-bluebird"at"yahoo.com [mailto:bookfanaticef-bluebird"at"yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 9:40 PM
Subject: Re: Disagrees w/ monitoring and putting up boxes.!

Nancy,
First, I'm going to apologize in advance for the length of the following email--your problem intrigued me, and so I did a lot of thinking before replying. I don't know how much it will help you, but I thought I would try to provide a view of things you and the others on the list who posted may not have considered. It seems like several things are going on here. It seems as though this person may be circumventing your authority, if you are the one being placed in charge of nest boxes in those city parks, and that may be more of an issue than having nest boxes put up "willy-nilly". Personally, I can see both sides of the issue, and I hope this doesn't make you or anyone else on this list too angry with me. I've been trained as a wildlife ecologist, and so tend to look objectively at an issue, and consider all the aspects & wildlife species involved. It's a very tough thing to figure out, when humans get themselves involved in manipulation of wildlife sp! ecies (yes, both installing boxes and monitoring nests is manipulation, even though we usually think of it as "helping"), and then conflicting viewpoints, ethics, & often politics get involved. Below, I've tried (I'm not entirely sure if I've succeeded) to apply objective scientific thinking to the problem.

(1) Regarding "proper" construction of the boxes: while many of us have certain standards that we consider to be "good" for nest boxes, keep in mind that these birds and other animals would naturally nest in a cavity (which they either made themselves or took over from another animal that made it) in a dead tree, which has NONE of the things like ventilation or drainage holes, predator guards, or "proper" entry hole or floor sizes. If people did not take down such trees as "hazards" or because they are "ugly," there would be plenty of natural cavities for such animals to nest in, and animals are far less particular about where they nest than we often assume. We build boxes "ideally," but the birds don't necessarily care about that--it's more of a "any port in storm" sort of thing for them when they're ready. Proper habitat to live & forage in is far more important than an "ideal" nest cavity. Of course, selection of cavities of certain parameters (i.e. "good") by a particular species will sometimes (not always) increase their potential survival, and selection of "bad" cavities will sometimes result in a decrease in their potential survival--but this is part of the evolutionary, "natural selection"process--animals that choose well have a better chance to pass on their genes.

(2) Regarding monitoring of the boxes: the birds would be perfectly fine if the boxes were not monitored, and in fact, probably be better off for the lack of disturbance during their nesting cycle. However, it seems that part of your issue is that you don't want non-target species using the boxes--whether they're other birds, insects, or mammals. This is a personal preference of yours, and if you are in charge of nest boxes on these properties, that is your perogative. Remember that if there were enough natural cavities around, a wide variety of animal species would utilize the cavities, "desirable" and "un-desirable" both, and they would "duke it out" among themselves to see who gets it.

(3) Regarding your concern for the target bird species: It seems like you feel that if you put up the boxes for the birds, it is therefore your responsibilty to ensure that other animals do not harm them. While I find this admirable, and agree with you to a certain degree, I also feel that the other animals are only doing what they would naturally do if "your" birds were nesting in a natural cavity instead of your box. Passerine birds, in a natural setting, on average have only a 50% chance of surviving to adulthood--everything that can loves to eat bird eggs & baby birds. On the other hand, cavity-nesters have a higher chance of surviving to adulthood than your average passerine (I can't remember the numbers on them, though), simply because their nests are in cavities that protect them better than an open cup nest. Nest predation does & will occur, whether you want it to or not. However, if these cavities are in city parks, especially in an area ! with very "people-smart" raccoons, then it would be of concern to me that the raccoons would learn about raiding nest boxes unnaturally quickly, and so end up raiding every single box every time a nest gets started, and therefore end up lowering the birds' survivorship. In that case, your nest boxes would be an ecological "sink"--attracting a species to an area more than would be expected normally, but to their ultimate detriment (i.e. lower survival than would noramlly be expected). Of course, you won't know if this is happening unless you monitor the boxes! :)

(4) Regarding House Sparrows: to me, this would be the issue of most concern. As an invasive exotic, I really think efforts should be made to control their populations, or at least prevent their further spread, as much as we're able at this late date. On the one hand, putting up unmonitored nest boxes would not necessarily increase their populations or result in their spread--again, remembering that presence of natural cavities would do the same thing. However, if HOSP are known to be an issue in your area, as they would especially be if you're in an urban/suburban setting, then it seems like you'd have to deal with them regardless of whether the boxes are monitored or not. No matter what happens, I would go with the assumption that more available cavities (natural or nest boxes) would result in more cavity-nesters, including more HOSP. The advantage of monitoring boxes in this case, is that you can additionally kill the HOSP that invade your boxes, though this may or m! ay not make any difference in the HOSP population or in how often they take over your boxes. Monitoring may however, help reduce the number of native birds' nests lost to HOSP.

A lot depends on the ultimate goal of your project. If your goal is provide more cavities for cavity-nesting species in general, so that the cavity-nesting species' populations can increase, then I would say any boxes installed (no matter what you think of their construction) would be a benefit, and just let Nature figure out which animals get what, and monitoring is not at all necessary, except to replace destroyed boxes if you choose to do so. If your goal is to do this, but ONLY for a very specific set of species, then a more specific, stricter set of nest-box construction parameters might be beneficial (though not necessary), but monitoring would probably be needed to ensure that no non-target species utilize the boxes. If your goal is the second one, and to educate the public on top of that, then I would say this is when both "good" nest-box construction AND proper monitoring are needed. Of course, if you have registered your nest-box trails with an organization that expects a certain standard of nest-box construction, with the undersatnding that they will be monitored in a certain way, and regularly, then it seems to me that obligation overrides nearly every other consideration, excepting that of the welfare of the wildlife species involved.

I sincerely hope you get all the problems regarding your nest boxes on these properties solved in a way that is satisfactory to everyone. Good luck with that, and may your boxes have many fledglings!
Elizabeth Farley
Gainesville, FL

Subject: RE: Disagrees w/ monitoring and putting up boxes.!

Well, I started reading and when I got to the part that they would be perfectly fine if they were not monitored, I stopped reading.

We go by what NABS guidelines are and that includes monitoring and making sure the man made cavities that we put out there are safe for the birds.

Since I didn't read the rest, I won't comment on anymore.

Evelyn

Evelyn,
If you had finished reading the Message, you would have found that I do believe that if we place mad-made cavities out there, we do have an obligation to the birds. I do not disagree with that aspect. I also stated that if you are explicitly following such guidelines as are established by NABS (or whatever other group you prefer), then you need to go by them above all, except if something goes against the ultimate welfare of the animals themselves. Perhaps I worded my statements poorly--enough so that you did not want to read anything I had to say further along, no matter how valid.

What I meant by "they would be perfectly fine if they were not monitored" is that animals have been doing their business long before we came along, and they will continue to do so whether or not we interfere in their lives. This includes predation by other animals, usurpation of cavities by other animals, etc. It's Nature, and it happens, though we may not like it. However, I also said that if installation of nest boxes (or any other type of manipulation) is likely to decrease their chances of survival, rather than either increasing their populations or maintaining the status quo, and could potentially be detrimental to the animals, rather than beneficial or neutral, then the boxes do need to be monitored.

I did not mean to imply I personally believe everything I stated in my post, though perhaps I worded them poorly, or a bit too strongly in my attempt to make the point. I also realize, now that I've looked over my post again, that I've presented a couple somewhat conflicting statements in my attempt to point out both sides of an argument, and this is a bit confusing. As I said before, I was merely trying to present an opposing point of view, which is equally valid, though it may not be yours, or totally mine for that matter. Of course, doing so is always controversial, but the opposing viewpoint must always be thoroughly considered so that you can make a sound argument for your side.
Elizabeth Farley
Gainesville, FL

But this is not the answer to some of our folks. Well, not many, but some do hold the view that we interfere with nature. All of my cohorts in our local Audubon Society had the same thought until we gave a presentation to them to show them what can happen in unmonitored boxes. Most caved, some never will.
It is a belief, and who says we aren't entitled to our beliefs?
Phil Berry

From: NANCY HANNA [mailto:nancy.hanna"at"btinternet.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 5:37 AM
Subject: two sides to monitoring? oversight is openspace areas...

Hello Elizabeth and all:

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Here is my long reply. So you do not monitor your boxes? What do you do with your boxes? Do you have a trail? Do you clean them between nestings? Check to see if there are wasps? Of just let them go? Interesting. I too try to see all sides of an issue as well. This seems to be an issue of great contention.
It seems to me that the boxes need some care or they rot and are of no use to the birds. Do others find that monitoring is not necessary? Just put the boxes up?
It appears the HUSP has the upper hand over our Bluebirds.

Let me clarify the project.It is sponsored by two groups, located in City parkland's and there is oversight. A wildlife Ranger helps me with this. It is not a private trail.

House Sparrows is a huge problem but at this point they are NOT in the open space area when we have WEBL and cavity nesting birds. Last year we had Ash-Throated Flycatcher for the first time. The bird had not been seen in ages. With human actions, we now have more migratory birds, the return of the Ca Quail to our parkland's. Without our efforts these birds would not be there as the land was over grazed, shrubs oak seedlings, most natives were grazed down, leaving little cover for the birds, and many the trees removed. We plant oak trees and natives.The trees are monitored or would die without water and protection from cattle....:)
the cattle help create the habitat the WEBL likes.

I am well informed about birds and habitat. The 6000 acres in question was saved from development by my mother. There are snag and felled trees and oak trees. And Starlings all over them! People did not see Western Bluebirds until the boxes went up just about 6 years ago but a responsible Eagle Scout, these boxes were taken over by CBRP because they were falling apart. The scout had moved on to university.

I have worked in Land acquisition. I understand the number one need is to protect natural habitat. But I live in Ca. with its rapidly growing human population and our open spaces, farms and remaining fields are now under a great deal of pressure and are being developed at an alarming rate. This a sponsored project in public park lands and is subject to oversight and stipulations. I do not care who has boxes, as long as they are cared for and monitored and are kept in fairly good shape. It is a requirement of our project and by the City, and the park rangers.
.
WEBL is still in decline because of human habitat expansion and our actions.

I could see the point of this argument, to not monitor, if the birds were not a threatened species (WEBL is still in decline) and the vast amount of evidence of the efforts of dedicated monitors bring back large numbers of birds. When we put up boxes we are creating non natural conditions. These boxes attract non-native completive species that must be controlled. I my area there are Starlings, non-native wasps, human who damage boxes, Raccoons, red squirrels that are not native to this area. We have dominion over the earth by being the dominant species and it is our lifestyle and the spread of our habitat that has put many species at risk.

It does not seem ethical to put up man made boxes and leave them. In other areas it is snakes, cats, humans, etc. I tend to lean in the direction of weekly monitoring and my experience informs my thinking on this. I have read a great deal on the subject and follow the lead of Cornell. I

1. am not sure weekly monitoring bothers the birds if you do it quickly and are in and out in a matter of seconds. I think large numbers of non native paper wasps on the nest box bothers the nestlings, HUSP etc. are more of an issues that monitoring the boxes.
And so much is learnt from monitoring boxes, and ensure less problems w/ wasps, HUSP etc So I disagree with this notion.

2. Construction standards are there for a reason. It seems there is a lot written on proper boxes for a good reason. If the boxes are not placed in the shade they need ventilation and drainage. placed in a proper area. This being said, why not build boxes to some standard? I do not see the point of this if you are building boxes not to do it to some standard??? The boxes I mentioned was more the size for a Wren.

3.Boxes and predation, notions of nature taking it course: I do understand that our cavity nester's would be nesting in trees snags and subject to predation. This is the facts of life and I accept this to a certain extent. ...

Nancy, Northern Ca and London
California Bluebird Recovery Program

From: owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu [mailto:owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu] On Behalf Of bookfanaticef-bluebird"at"yahoo.com
Subject: RE: Disagrees w/ monitoring and putting up boxes.!

Evelyn,

If you had finished reading the Message, you would have found that I do believe that if we place mad-made cavities out there, we do have an obligation to the birds. I do not disagree with that aspect. I also stated that if you are explicitly following such guidelines as are established by NABS (or whatever other group you prefer), then you need to go by them above all, except if something goes against the ultimate welfare of the animals themselves. Perhaps I worded my statements poorly--enough so that you did not want to read anything I had to say further along, no matter how valid.

**Sounds like talking in circles.

What I meant by "they would be perfectly fine if they were not monitored" is that animals have been doing their business long before we came along, and they will continue to do so whether or not we interfere in their lives. This includes predation by other animals, usurpation of cavities by other animals, etc. It's Nature, and it happens, though we may not like it. However, I also said that if installation of nest boxes (or any other type of manipulation) is likely to decrease their chances of survival, rather than either increasing their populations or maintaining the status quo, and could potentially be detrimental to the animals, rather than beneficial or neutral, then the boxes do need to be monitored.

**Here is where I strongly disagree with you. Animals will not continue to do just fine if we do not interfere and provide them with a place to live. That is how the bluebird made its comeback. If we could have used our heads, maybe we would still have the Ivory-billed Woodpecker.

**There’s no if and buts about monitoring. In my post, I told about predators living in these nestboxes and we did not spend money, labor and time installing them, not to mention the fact our intended species were not thriving in them.

I did not mean to imply I personally believe everything I stated in my post, though perhaps I worded them poorly, or a bit too strongly in my attempt to make the point. I also realize, now that I've looked over my post again, that I've presented a couple somewhat conflicting statements in my attempt to point out both sides of an argument, and this is a bit confusing. As I said before, I was merely trying to present an opposing point of view, which is equally valid, though it may not be yours, or totally mine for that matter. Of course, doing so is always controversial, but the opposing viewpoint must always be thoroughly considered so that you can make a sound argument for your side.

**That again is confusing. I state what I believe and stand by it.

**I have been on this list 5 years and this is the first post I’ve ever read stating the nestboxes would be fine without monitoring. Even the few folks that only open the nestbox, monitor weekly.

**I know exactly what would happen on my trail if I did not monitor properly. I saw it happen as I was learning and that was not my purpose for having it out there.

**I do not mean for this to sound rude, just that I think you are talking to the wrong crowd when you said monitoring was not necessary.

** There is nothing confusing about it to me, either you take care of what you put out there or you don’t. If you do, you will have great rewards, if you don’t, they will be few.

Evelyn, Gainesville, FL

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas
Remember the story about Harry Krueger and the House Sparrow last week?
Harry maintained 60 nestboxes for his research with these nestboxes spread out over corners of three counties. EVERY nestbox was mounted on freshly greased, painted metal water pipe and monitored daily from February till October.

EVERY 7/8" thick cedar nestbox had ventilation, drainage holes, a white roof coating double sealed roof with lots of overhang. A double thick entrance hole. 40" of 4" PVC pipe over the water pipe as recommended by Texas Parks and Wildlife to protect against more climbing predators. He used a weed eater to create 4 feet of cleared ground around each nestbox pole placed on state highway right of ways as per the rules of the Texas Department of Transportation.

He tested EVERY guard, gimmick, chemical barrier ever written about to reduce predation at the nestboxes.

He applied axle grease thinned with gum turpentine twice during each nesting attempt of bluebirds to the steel water pipe. He reapplied fresh grease after every major rain storm. He sprayed all nearby mounds of fire ants with insecticides. He applied bait type fire ant killers near the nestbox poles every couple of weeks. (He still lost bluebird nests to fire ants.)

Harry maintained a double plastic mesh snake trap to every nestbox pole right up under the nestbox. Normally used some type of metal guard above many PVC guards. (He still lost bluebirds to snakes) He installed nestboxes in a whole area up on telescoping poles if he saw a single cat in the area just one time! He used havahart traps and trapped in the region year around with the 12 gauge as a handy second option. He toured his trail at different hours of the night to watch for predators.

He normally spent 7 hours a day 7 days a week watching and trapping his nesting adult bluebirds in those 60 nestboxes during the main nesting season. He used thermometers in the nestboxes to check for temperature variations in locations and shifted nestbox orientation according to local wind currents. He installed and monitored rain gauges along his trails.

Harry trapped every House Sparrow anywhere near his trail. If he could not trap them he used a shotgun. He still lost bluebirds to House Sparrows.

Since Harry removed or asked people to remove nestboxes in his test area there was always a nestbox shortage for all the cavity nesters. Harry normally had 59 out of 60 nestboxes being used on any given day between April 15 and May 30. Harry would fledge around 500 bluebirds from 60 nestboxes or about 8.3 birds per nestbox per year. 25% of his banded adult bluebirds fledged four broods a year. When a nest had eggs or young birds he checked the nestbox EVERYDAY sometimes TWICE a day until the last minute the last baby fledged.

Harry found that most of his just fledged female bluebirds tried to nest near his trail the following season. That would be around another 150 pairs of bluebirds fighting over limited cavities. He banded every nestling every nesting. He was amazed at the numbers of adult unbanded bluebirds that out fought the resident banded birds for his nestboxes each spring! Maybe more resident bluebirds died each winter than he thought.

According to his banded birds 90% of the adults using his boxes were under the age of three or four years old. Eastern bluebirds have been known to live to be well over 10 years old. The furthest return of one of Harry's banded birds was ever reported was less than 30 miles. If bluebirds can live to be 14 years old and you are mostly finding 3 or 4 year olds nesting then MANY bluebirds were being killed!

Checking a nestbox for a "few seconds" once a week will give you decent nestbox records. If you find a dead bluebird you know that it died during one of the 604,800 seconds since you last checked the nestbox. It takes a House Wren less than 5 seconds an egg on average to remove them from a nestbox.

Nestboxes mounted where there are "lots" of House Sparrows or even a few showing up constantly during weekly checks of a trail will result in native cavity nesters dying. You CANNOT protect every bird every second!

There are MANY people on this list who average raising more than 9 bluebirds per nestbox in their own back yard!

DO NOT get bent out of shape over "perceived" ideas or notions from E-MAILS!!!!! What you think they mean is normally NOT what they meant!
Everyone has a right to their own opinions! Bluebird survival is not a real issue today but it will be years from now if we alienate those who are trying to help the bluebirds in their own way today!

NO bluebird species has EVER been on the endangered species list! We use these birds to educate "nestbox monitors" into the dangers all species face.
When you monitor nestboxes you only learn what happened since you last opened these nestboxes! When you lose a bird in a well protected nestbox or a nestbox not protected at all you can compare these two types so see which is more dangerous!

LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION of nestboxes then sustaining available habitat are all important but being KIND and COURTEOUS to fellow bluebirders, want to be bluebirders or maybe someday bluebirds dwarfs any other issue on this list!!! KK

From: Chuck Jensen [mailto:cjensen"at"dts9000.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 9:36 AM
Subject: RE: Disagrees w/ monitoring and putting up boxes.!

Evelyn,
This exchange was rather amusing in that, after reading Ms. Farley's original posting, I sent an offline Message to her complimenting her on a reasoned, well constructed, and perhaps even a little provocative, view of the the trail-must-be-monitored issue. I had no more sent that Message then I read the next one from you where you closed your eyes and refused to read further because of the blasphemy of Ms. Farley's posting.

Well, never one to shrink from an intellectual dustup (even though I'm poorly armed), I'll expand on the a-bad-box-is-still-better-than-no-box concept a little by inquiring who it was that decided blue birds were superior to sparrows, or wrens, or raccoons, or even those damnable wretched starlings? I understand you like blue birds better, I know I certainly do and I suspect this list and the general population could join in unanimity on the subject. But we should not mistake beliefs and feelings, even strongly held ones, as facts and truths.

I have no interest in attempting to speak for Ms. Farley, as she seems amply capable of doing so for herself, but her general thesis (as I understood it) seems to be fair enough. Absent other influence, its not unreasonable or immoral to let nature fight it out. However, if we want to tip the scales a little due to our personal bias (namely, we like blue birds), fine, then we can put up poorly designed and badly maintained boxes. Of course, if we so choose and wish to attempt to tip the scales upside down by constructing high quality boxes of optimum design and of superior materials followed with meticulous monitoring and record keeping, then by all means, we should do so.

Hopefully, while doing so, we keep in mind that we are doing this for a somewhat selfish. self-indulgent reasons...namely, we like blue birds...even if it is to the detriment of other species (such as the English House Rat).

There is no right or wrong here. If you have a personal objective, or your organization has an objective of husbanding a meticulously designed and maintained trail, then you will have the personal satisfaction of having executed the art of supporting blue bird propagation to its fullest. Nonetheless, the person that puts out a single box, made of white pine with no drain holes and forgets to check it and only fledges two young instead of the four they could have raised if they'd properly tended the box, has still done good!

I would continue on, but I have a half dozen BB boxes to check on and everyone of my 64 purple martin gourds are still empty...where ARE they?

Chuck

A mind is like a parachute, its not much good if its not open.

As I stated, I did not mean to come across as rude. Just expressing my opinion as to what was written.

I remember a time when I was a brand new "newbie" on here and you along with a few others took me to the woodshed about killing a snake that had raided my nestbox was full of bluebird babies. I found where they were making their rounds on the rest of the trail. I was in the learning process and believe me, I was devastated by the "unkind" words hurled my way.

I am not Harry Krueger, Keith, and I can tell you that when I started doing things right as recommended by NABS, my population of Bluebirds soared.

The Bluebird was NEAR extinction. It states it in most books. If we had not intervened, they may be in the same category as the Ivory-Billed.

I have had my say and I speak from a learning experience. If some people don't want to do it in a way that is most productive, that is their privilege. We do have "newbies" on here and they must see all sides of the story. In some posts you defend monitoring and then you come up like you are putting it down.

Many experts on this List agree that having an 80 to 90% fledging rate is much better than 50% or less.

IT WORKS GREAT FOR ME!!

I also received an e-mail from an individual telling me I had a closed mind and that we are only interested in our precious little bluebird. I advised him to go to our site and read our mission statement. He even asked me who was it that decided the bluebirds are superior to the HOSP or the Starlings?
Well, that kind of thinking would surely make the Bluebirds on the endangered list.

Evelyn

As I replied to you in a private post, my mind is WIDE OPEN and I saw what was happening if I did not do something.

I hope you take the time to go to our site www.labayoubluebirdsociety.org and read our mission statement.

Why are we even discussing bluebirds and other cavity nesters and why do we even need a bluebird list if we just bang the box anywhere and forget it?

I really have more important things to do.

Evelyn

From: NANCY HANNA [mailto:nancy.hanna"at"btinternet.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: WHOA GUYS! MONITORING

Hi Kieth:

The man I mentioned does not monitor at all and just puts boxes up and walks away to let predator species have a go at them. In areas with HUSP, now a trail near mine. Then I have to monitor them. Why are folks defending this action?? I have read nothing that encourages people to put up boxes and abandon them. I am not talking micromanagement. Just basic care. The man is not friend, and we will work things out. As I said, he is now hot for wood duck boxes. :)

I think that my main concern is that the project boxes are in an area where we are lucky not to have H O SP at this time. I want to keep it this way if I can, thus put them in a location away from HUSP. You are right location location etc. But he put them in HUSP heaven.

I just want the boxes to be in good condition, simply with lids etc, so the City does not pull the plug on the program. I am dealing with a lot of politics with this project. They are not at all keen on boxes going up all over the parkland's to rot and without oversight. I know there is predation. This is life. Nestling's die for all sorts of reasons. I have had them die and could not tell why.

But you agree with monitoring right? Cleaning out between nestings, to control wasps, and repacing lids, making some things right? Keeping the boxes in functioning condition?

Nancy, Northern Ca

From: NANCY HANNA [mailto:nancy.hanna"at"btinternet.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 10:16 AM
Subject: RE: Disagrees w/ monitoring and putting up boxes.!

Hi Chuck: You lost me with who decided that BB are better than H O SP or Raccoons??? What? You do realise House Sparrows are non native spices that threaten native birds?? The are English birds from the UK. They kill Bluebirds and are one of the reasons the populations of Bluebirds were nearly lost.

Nancy
London And Northern Ca

Correction: The bluebird was near being put on the "endangered list". I have a lot of irons in the fire this morning. : ) Evelyn

From Nancy's replies, I think Elizabeth's post just muddied the waters.

Nancy was very concerned about the shoddy way the trail was in and wanted to improve it and the monitoring. The trail was in this shape because of being treated in the manner in which Elizabeth said was "fine" in some cases. In my book, there are no cases in which this is "fine".

From several years on this list and reading thousands of posts, I know
that
bluebirders on here agree that faithful monitoring is the way to go. In fact, I do know several that think it is cruelty to the birds to stick it up and knowing what their fate is going to be if they don't care for it properly.

Evelyn

From: Bruce Burdett [mailto:blueburd"at"verizon.net]
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 12:00 PM
Subject: Monitoring in general

BLUEBIRD-L,

I think that a reasonable analogy can be made between Bluebird-box monitoring and beekeeping.
In both cases, we are trying to create *optimum* conditions for a species which we wish to assist and encourage.
In the case of honeybees, our goal is a good cash crop of honey, produced under optimum, controlled conditions
In the case of Bluebirds, we are trying to reverse a trend toward the extinction of a desireable species which was threatened by human activity. Man brought the House Sparrow and the Starling to our shores. Man eliminated the Bluebird's natural habitat. Man introduced poisonous chemicals into their environment.
Granted that both Bluebirds and honeybees got along pretty well in nature before Man began to intervene in various ways.
I am convinced that an un-monitored Bluebird house is more harmful than no house at all.

Bruce Burdett, SW NH

Hi All,

When I took over the Bluebird boxes four years ago at For-Mar Nature Preserve in Genesee County, MI it was very bad. The Genesee County Audubon Society was the ones that had the boxes. The first two years they had them they would check them in April and September.
The next year they only checked in April. From than on till I took over the boxes they were not checked at all.

I do not know why but the Genesee Audubon So-city has not been of much help to the Michigan Bluebird Society.
I have asked them if we could go in together but they said they would not work with us. I have set up TV talks and a week before I was to go on TV Genesee Audubon Society called the TV station and told them not to have me on. I do not know why they do not like MBS.

Maynard Sumner
Flint, MI

www.mibluebirdsociety.com

Hi all,

Looks like the question of who decided that bluebirds were more desirable than non-native species was determined recently by Congressional legislation. 'Nuff said.....

As for the original post, it left me a little dumbfounded -- as it seems to have Evelyn; and I'm a little confused by your post which goes full circle, but that's not the issue here.

I don't believe Evelyn expects to have a 100% fledging rate, but if you were familiar with the situation in her area, you'd realize that she would be have closer to 0 % without close monitoring. It's taken a lot of hard work and vigilance, but Evelyn has bluebirds where there were virtually none a few short years ago.

If we encourage people to put up nest boxes for cavity nesters and to report fledging data, it seems only sensible that we also encourage them to monitor the nest boxes. How else can we know what, if anything, our efforts are contributing? If we know that nest boxes are producing non-native species detrimental to the native species we're trying to help, are we supposed to just shrug and ignore the negative impact of our efforts? Or should we make an effort to correct the situation and provide safe nesting sites for native cavity nesters?

It seems obvious to me that location should determine the way and how often one monitors nest boxes. The nest boxes on my golf course trail require far more maintenance than the ones in my yard.
(It's not only my prerogative; management is adamant about this!)

If predators are a problem, appropriate guards should be installed.
After fledging, nature will "take its course," but the idea of allowing bluebirds to "duke it out" with a raccoon or squirrel is naive, at best.

Past posts to this list during have provided ample evidence (to me, at least) that it is indeed unreasonable to expect bluebirds to hold their own fighting it out with house sparrows. Allowing "nature to take its course" after the introduction of non-native competitive species was one factor leading to the decline of the bluebird population. Competition from an "un-natural" invasive spoiled the natural selection process, as such.

At a presentation I gave recently, a woman asked why bluebirds that build in her yard have never produced fledglings. She wasn't sure how many eggs were laid or hatched because she'd never opened the box, and she'd never heard of a predator guard, but she knew she had raccoons. No guard, no monitoring, no birds produced -- just fat raccoons!

MJ

(Mary Jane Shearer; Tucker, GA)

From: Brucemac1"at"aol.com [mailto:Brucemac1"at"aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: Monitoring in general

I emphatically agree with Bruce.....

Last fall, I inherited a small 8-box trail here in SW Ontario, near Detroit.

The trail had been successful in years past. But it had been unmonitored during the entire season last year ( 2004 )

Two of the boxes were occupied by Mice. The other six boxes were packed to the top with HOSP nests, Gr-r-r-r-r-r.

In two of those boxes, is was apparent that something had killed two female bluebirds at the bottom of both boxes. One female had been incubating four eggs. The other was sitting on four, now mummified, babies.

HOSP nests were built immediately on top of the dead bluebirds. From the volume of old HOSP nest materials, I'm guessing that there were two, or three, HOSP nests over each of the dead BB's.

The remaining four boxes also indicated multiple HOSP nests. They, too, were filled to capacity with the old HOSP nesting debris.

......So much for the debate over monitored vs unmonitored nestboxes. Conservatively speaking, six boxes, each used three times, producing 4 new HOSP per nesting, .....60 or 70 HOSP offspring. Add another 16 HOSP hatchlings from the BB execution scene(s), new total.....80 or 90 HOSP babies.

Bruce Macdonald, SW Ontario, near Detroit, North shore of Lake Erie

Friends,
Do you not find it irritating to see others having such an enjoyable time. Just look at those who have such fun enlightening the great unwashed masses among members of the bluebird list on the merits of sticking to the facts when it comes to bluebird/human relationships. They seek to teach us the ways of believing that we will discover facts are friendly if we give them a chance and cling to the tried and true scientific methods of learning through discovery.
Of course the poor souls miss the point. However, at least once a year the debate continues when someone decides we just don't get it and takes us in arms and pleads for us to pay attention to the truth.
The other side tries to explain, at times with little success, that the joy of caring for the bluebird is not in learning the facts but in experiencing the love. Studying the bluebird and Loving the Bluebird are separate worlds.
The Bluebird is a Cut Above all others. He seeks nothing in return for his superior being. For his unique color and personality he ask not for special favors. He appreciates your admiration and thanks you for your help. The fact, that in his world, you cared for him is the only fact that mattered.
Wendell Long
at CaesarCreek
OHIO, USA

Ahhhh, Wendell! "Loving the Bluebird!"

In a nestbox less than two miles from my house, where I first beheld blue eggs five years ago, today I saw once again five blue eggs. Yet again, an audible "Ahhhh!" escaped from my heart.

And, my friend James has five blue eggs in a nestbox in his yard down the street from me! For over five years James has helped me in the quest to bring a bluebird population to our area. I'm so happy for him, and he's ecstatic.

My thoughts go back to the Saturday night banquet at the 2001 North Amercan Bluebird Society Convention. When Kay Hindsley sang her "Bluebird Medley"
in a room filled with Bluebird Love, most every eye glistened and many a tear fell.

I was sitting with Keith Kridler who has known the Love for several decades.
He wept.

Kay will sing "Bluebird Medley" at this year's convention in Asheville NC, May 19 - 22. My eyes fill with tears just thinking about it.

Pauline Tom
Mountain City (no mountains) TX

From: NANCY HANNA [mailto:nancy.hanna"at"btinternet.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 7:41 PM
Subject: Thank you and opps w/ micromanagement

Hi all Bluebird lovers!

Thank you for your thoughts on this. It was such a great help.

Just to clear up a point. Please understand I will just used this "micromanagement" term in the context of a comparison to placing boxes and then abandoning them. I know most of you on the list carefully monitor to track egg laying, hatching, fledging etc. I know what can happen if we don't monitor. No we cant save them all. But we can help and learn from monitoring. This why Cornell has the TBN.
I do the same for reports when I monitor. Please know I realise you love the birds, and I respect you and your dedication to BB recovery programs.This is why I turned to the list for thoughtful insight on how to manage my issue of abandoned boxes in public park lands. Most of the information I received was very helpful, respectful, and addressed the specific issues I raised in my Message. I have a handle on this at this point.

I must say I am a more than a bit surprised to have received arguments for placing man-made nest boxes and letting the nature take it's course. I sent some of this on to a good friend from who is an environmentalist, among other things, with a Oxford PhD ( in the sciences) to get his thoughts, he was rather surprised by this notion of putting up boxes and then letting the native birds fight things out w/ non-native House Sparrows. Why, he asked? I have lurked on the list for a few years and do not recall ever seeing this idea on the list.

Very kind regards, Nancy

Well, Nancy, opinions are like belly buttons. We all have one. For the most part, most are very good opinions and for the betterment of the Bluebird and other native cavity nesters.

I along with one of my fellow bluebirders have come up against this idea on a List Serve that is not about Bluebirds and most don't have a clue about them. Some even get upset when you talk about what to do with the HOSP and thinks he deserves a bluebird box too. Talk about frustrating!

Last season, the only predator I had was the wasp and I had to go every day until I got it conquered so they would not run the Bluebirds off.

I can see the fledglings when they return after leaving the nestbox. I can count them on the power lines and see them in the trees near the nestboxes.
There was about 150 flying around the Cooper farm last season. What a sight!

The HOSP and Starling is not a threat on my trail so far in my eight years.
I count my blessings!

Keep us posted on how it goes with you.

Evelyn

I looked out the window this morning as I was getting ready for Church and saw a male bluebird on my bottom deck eating real suet crumbs. That's the first I have ever seen that.

Also, my two cents for monitoring is that I think it's better to monitor--no question--but if you cannot, then it's good to put up a box anyway.

We have a person in our Central Indiana Purple Martin Club that has a huge martin colony but he never monitors his martin housing. He puts up his housing and fledges lots of martins. His colony has been coming back to him year after year.

Dottie, Hickory Hollow
Brown County, Indiana

Nancy,

How frustrating!! You have already done the first thing I would try - talking to the person directly. Since this did not work, I would take the next step. If it were me, I would ask the Board of Directors of the Park to put you on the agenda for their next meeting. I would tell them you would like to do a little educational program about bluebirds (I assume we are talking WEBL since you are in California). I would ask that they advertise this program in local papers so any interested residents in the area could attend as well. I try to never point fingers directly at someone who is screwing up unless I am only speaking one on one with that person, but because he has not listened, you can now make the board aware of your concerns in a diplomatic way.

Educate them on the nestbox space requirements for WEBL. I do not know what sized boxes Mr. ? is putting in, but you could use one of these as an example. EABL require less floor space than your WEBL. Maybe Mr ? box would be fine out east, but not so for WEBL. Give them a NABS handout which explains nestbox requirements - size and ventilation issues. Educate them on WEBL decline due to habitat destruction and competing non-native species.
Explain how manmade nestboxes have helped to dramatically increase the populations of both WEBL and EABL, but they require careful monitoring and management. I actually prefer the term "nestbox management" because monitoring implies taking a peek and walking away. Explain how lack of HOSP control in HOSP prone areas can actually be "calling WEBL in for the slaughter". Show them pictures if you wish. These are park board members and local citizens who are lovers of wildlife. Employ the help of the park ranger you mentioned. Make sure he is at the meeting and have him explain why he thinks HOSP control is a good idea. Employ the help of your county coordinator for your state bluebird society (do you have one)? Have him at the meeting if he can come. They will be hearing the same Message from other people who know what they are talking about. Allow plenty of questions during your talk because the board members and citizens will ask questions for you that will make your point. Finally, I would ask permission to be the coordinator for bluebird boxes in the park - i.e. if you see a box that is not up to par, you have the right to remove it. If you don't like the location, move it. Ask for monitor volunteers and offer to educate them, etc.

Have the same meeting with your City Council (?) with same request for public invitation. Education is the key. Some people are too stubborn to learn so we teach the ones that will make a difference.

Paula Z
Powell (Central) Ohio

From: NANCY HANNA [mailto:nancy.hanna"at"btinternet.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 1:47 PM
Subject: Abandoned boxes no more...

To all Gentle Bluebirders:

Thank you all for your help regarding the abandoned box issue. The information helped inform and strengthened my arguments and my resolve on this issue.
It was never my intention to upset anyone. However, I strongly believe that if boxes are put up they should be monitored weekly.

Happily, I just got an e-mail from the Wildlife Ranger who is strongly on the side of monitoring and maintaining all the next boxes that are placed in the parkland. The project has a better chance of success with oversight. I now have the authority from the park staff and management as well as their backing of to enforce this policy. We also set up some Bluebird educational walks for the public this summer.

I worked out a new project proposal for the Bluebird trail project, for the future expansion, and a presentation this weekend. Things look very good for this project! We have a meeting in Cal on Wed evening.
I will let you know how things go....
I hope only for this exciting new trail project to grow and for many bluebirds to fledge in the area, and to share the joys of Blue-birding with others!

Happy Bluebirding!
Cheers,

Nancy

[Beginning of post under history]

Great post, Christy, except that I think the best thing is a "monitored" box, not the next best thing!!!! An unmonitored box should not be out there!
Evelyn

From: Christy [mailto:ke4fej1"at"email.msn.com]
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: BB Trail History & Bluebirds on TV!

Hi Evelyn and All, ok.. I think we can say even more...was talking more about my area, but for those new Monitors to clarify....

Yes I do believe it is always best to have a Monitored box... but there are places that don't have House Sparrow problems... I can't believe how lucky we are....Monitors are on the lookout for them... and people have the knowledge of what they can do when the problem comes. I hope we can keep them out and even drive them back. So in this huge area even though I want my people to always Monitor...... if boxes were to go up and not be monitored.......I know it is still helping. (Yes I know that in Keith's area there are HS getting to the boxes, but he knows what he is getting, and he feels it is better than no box...I can accept that)

For my area, I hope when they do put boxes up that they have the predator guards on them....and I would like to believe most are at homes...so that they are looked at...at least once a year cleaned and maybe maintaned...then I hope I somehow can reach these people to educate them...but while I wait to for them to find me ..or me them... I know their boxes are helping...every box is not a Nature Happybox Meal...could be but when I could start getting more people involved if I did not have guards on all pole... I then did get more people ...and I also find out of my ..close to 1000 boxes... only 10 had a real predator problem...and out of that 10 some were only hit once.......so not all boxes are out there feeding other animals...which I think is terrible... if one knows there is a problem and is not fixing it...that to me is a sin.... if one doesn't know any better...we need to find them and educate them. ...what I would like to get into is working along the area boardering BBs and HS...where No HS are found after that line..... and trap trap trap and push them back.... like the town that many years before New Orleans World Fair...but the other Southern city... I can't remember it's name on the river......they brought the BB back to downtown!!!!!... now that would be an incredible accomplishment. We only have to start and to continue...

Christy

From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com]
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 5:16 PM
Subject: RE: BB Trail History & Bluebirds on TV!

It is not just HOSP's where we (you too) live that can be just as deadly.
Ants can get them in a heart beat, also wasps can stop the nesting before it
ever begins This happened on one of our sponsored trails last year that they
did not monitor as they should have. I have seen with my own two eyes in
many instances what happens the majority of the time when you put up boxes
that are not cared for. To me, it is mostly a waste of money and time. I
have seen it happened right around me. That is why I think education is so
important, just as important as putting out the box. In fact, you can rest
assured if the nestbox is not there, the Bluebird will find a place to nest
that is just as safe as an unmonitored, unguarded nestbox!

We spend as much time in giving presentations and workshops educating people
as we do in erecting nestboxes.

I wish you lots of luck, and I encourage you to find ways to educate the
people. That is really the key.

Evelyn Cooper
Delhi, LA

[Note from webmaster: in response to Kridler post found under History]

I don't think there were as many guards back that many years ago and when you don't use guards, it is a proven fact that the fledging rate is cut in half or more. I have read that people that put up these boxes (most of them) know the fledging rate is lower and accept that kind of bluebirding. The
lack of predator guards was what I was talking about, not Zeleny's lack of monitoring. However, I feel sure people were like a lot of them now. Stick up the box and let it take care of itself.

I feel sure many trails back in the early 1900's did not have guards and they were putting up as many as they could to boost their population. Most people were not floating in money either to buy that many guards.

We have a better way to do it. I think it is inhumane to sacrifice the lives of half the bluebirds on a trail when it can be avoided. We are not in a drastic rush to "Bring Back The Bluebirds". We should be concerned about the Western Bluebirds and their slow recovery. However, to rush out and put nestboxes all over Louisiana with no predator guards and not monitor is not the way LBBS operates.

Just this morning, I read on another list serve that this man moved a chickadee box off a chain link fence because it was too close to a feeder and attracted other birds. He moved it to the trunk of a tree. I cringed as I know all about these snakes and other critters that would get a nice meal.

Evelyn Cooper
Delhi, LA
Louisiana Bayou Bluebird Society

By the way, nestboxes are up all over Louisiana without guards. They were there before there ever was an LBBS. They are in just as many other states as well, right this minute. MOST states have climbing predators. The fact remains, that these nestboxes produce 50% or less bluebirds fledgling than those with guards. This was my point! We can do better!
Evelyn

Keith, I remember a post not too long ago where you told about how you hung gourds, placed tin cans and had nestboxes without guards. People have been doing this for as long as most of us can remember.

I learned early on that every nestbox had to be protected or what consequences there is for it.

In the 90's, I think more guards and more awareness of obtaining an 80 to 90% percent fledging took hold. You know, like folks are finally catching on? It took two of my presentations a year apart for one lady to understand it is best not to place the nestbox on a tree.

I don't think anyone is meaning to "put down" any of the pioneers, heaven forbid! Just that more folks are realizing we should do it right the first time and are able to afford to do things the right way. Believe me, we still have a ways to go!

Evelyn

I have to add something here that has been on my mind for a while now.

I am fortunate enough to have a standing dead tree line of OVER 1500 feet in length that is on the edge of an open, organic farming field (no I'm not exaggerating - it is a sight to see) not that far from were my nestboxes are located. Almost every dead tree on that line has a MINIMUM of 5 natural
cavities (all shapes and sizes) - most created by the local woodpeckers. We even found an old BCCH nest in one of the lower cavities just a few weeks ago (I couldn't believe they nested in such a large cavity) when we went back there snow shoeing and I think (very strongly) that a pair of EABL hatched 4 young back there last year - you'd have to go back to posts last June to know the history behind that story.

Should I put guards on those cavities? Should I ring those trees with baffles? Should I be going back there with a ladder every weekend to monitor those cavities? Or maybe I should take down those dead trees and put up nest boxes to replace them? Am I being an irresposible monitor if I "allow" them to continue nesting there and not intervene? (Sorry if I sound sarcastic, but I also advocate NATURAL nesting when and where possible and do what I can to maintain/preserve a natural environment in this area).

Of course there is no "control" over predators on this tree line, but was there ever? I go back there a few times a year and always feel a sense of awe that "our" birds are just going about the business of doing what they've always done and every visit I find new evidence of cavity creation or nesting. I can't tell the birds that this is not a safe area for them to nest and raise their young.

I have at least 11 boxes (all with guards, etc...) on approx. 8 acres of land and if I get any birds nesting in 1/3 - 1/2 of them, I'm happy... but I have natural cavity nesters (Eastern Screech Owls, American Kestrals, Black Capped Chickadees, Tree Swallows, Downies, Hairys, Pileated, White Breasted and Red Breasted Nuthatches, Northern Flickers, Yellow Bellied Sapsuckers, Tufted Titmice, House Wrens, EABL) occupying 17 1/2 acres of land! I know they're not using all "my" boxes - they're finding nesting spots on their own.

My point here is: Putting up boxes is part of helping ALL natural cavity nesting species, but we can't control what they are going to do. Tony and I give them a choice of "Natural" and "Manmade", but it is up to them to choose where to nest. They don't always choose the "home" we would like
(for our convienence), but they are suceeding and thriving here (my birdcounts and personal journals tell me that)

We may be the monitors, but it is the birds who will make their choices (and they don't always choose what we think is best for them).

kimmarie :)
Buffalo/Varysburg, Western NY

Kim Marie, if you read the article I posted by Ron Kingston, he made the statement that natural cavities are very high in trees, some are so high the birds can slip in them unnoticed. It also was stated that man made cavities are out in the open making them more venerable to predators. This article is on our website if you would like to read it. I think it is one of the best I've come across.

I too dearly love natural cavities. I have many on my place and wouldn't dare cut them down. I know for sure I have 4 or 5 different species of woodpeckers nesting in them, along with Titmouse and Carolina Chickadees.

I think we are all sort of misunderstanding each other. It is the man made cavities that are so many now days that we should take responsibility for. I feel very strongly about this.

I know first hand what no guards or improper guards and no monitoring can do for the birds in these man made cavities. Why would NABS go to all the trouble to make these recommendations to us if it had not been tried and proved?

Keith talked about "bigger holes" in the nestboxes that was in the NABS Journal. It was just presenting one a man's idea, something he was working with. I am sure Keith has tried so many different things, they would be hard to count. Personally, the huge holes did not appeal to me and what is recommended works for me.

Evelyn Cooper
Delhi, LA
Louisiana Bayou Bluebird Society

Don't mean to keep on keeping on, but I've never seen any cavities in my neck of the woods that are very low. I don't know what Ron based his statements on, but of course, there is always the exception.

As for the construction of guards on the NABS website, they are all there. The stovepipe guard, the noel guard, the cone guard, the cooley hat, take your pick!

I in no way was meaning to shed a light not complimentary to those before us. I was merely looking at the world around me and stating what I thought needed to be done for our day and time. If there is a state free of any predators, I would like to know about it. You are right, each of us have to
deal with different things, but I feel like a predator guard in most instances are called for.

Evelyn

One more thing, as for adapting predator guards, there again we are not on the same page. I did not mean to indicate that just because I install a certain type of guard, EVERYONE else needs to do that. That is ridiculous. I don't use any kind of HOSP trap. Why? I don't have any. That does not mean I may never get any.

I say use the kind of guards that you know you need. One of the first things I tell my audiences is when you monitor your trail, you will get to know your predators. I tell them "Everyone does not have the same predators".

My point is we HAVE predators of some kind. I am so thankful that the majority of the people that I meet want to have the greatest number of fledglings they can. Sure, things happen. From my experiences though, when I corrected the problems, it is working like a charm!! Why? Because I see bluebirds EVERYWHERE and a few years ago, you did not see them EVERYWHERE up and down the Cooper Rd and east and west of me.

Evelyn

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas
I would not take down natural cavities but you can monitor them with binoculars and still mark down normally when you see them feeding. You won't be able to be sure they fledged but it will give you an idea. Low cavities can be looked in. You can place a snake guard made from 3/4" square mesh
"bird" netting around the tree trunk with active nests to see if snakes are a problem in your area.

In Bluebird a while back they told where black bears could smell a nest of cavity nesters and climb up the tree to a height of 45' to tear apart the snag to get to the baby birds. They gave very high mortality numbers due to bears breaking into natural cavities in the test area. Black bears are increasing in numbers in Canada and in some states.

I wonder about the feral hogs now as they root up rotten logs and eat a wide assortment of foods and have a wonderful sense of smell. Hogs were turned loose in the gulf coast area of Texas by the Spanish explorers for a stable source of food for their shipwrecked sailors back in 1539 and now there are over 2 million wild hogs in more than 220 of the 254 counties in Texas. Hogs are running wild all through the gulf coast states.

You can watch for woodpeckers in a cavity and then see if starlings end up in it. Normally the more cavities in a small area the less competition and less likely for one species to boot another if you have dozens and dozens of cavities. You can place a small dish of dog food or break an egg one night in this area to see if four legged predators eat the food. One of the favorite foods of raccoons is honey.

When I find bluebirds in mailboxes or on shelves or nesting in hollow stumps, or the "goose neck" on trailers I go ahead and make a "nestbox card". When you see bluebirds in an area during nesting season it normally does not take that long to find their cavity. Watch and wait! It can be very
good for high blood pressure:-)) You can see if some of these fledge and if the bluebirds return

Keith states one of the best approaches to "monitoring" natural cavities -- that being to observe and make notes, but do not necessarily count these in nestbox surveys, as they are not artificial. By keeping notes on the natural cavities though, you can derive data on the demographics of the species using the natural vs. the nestbox cavity, which can shed some interesting light on the "pro's and con's" or pluses and minuses of the two. It may even allow you to formulate some of the limitations for a species in your area -- i.e. not enough cavities, higher/lower predation rates, life span of the cavities or the snags in which cavities exist.

Keith's comments on bears are very true. Almost all bears are pretty omnivorous, with the predominant major exception being polars. Does not surprise me that a black bear would raid a natural cavity... and yes, black bears are increasing in many areas b/c they are now managed or protected... considering we pretty much removed them from the vast majority of the natural habitat during the early settlement of this continent. These animals are extremely adept at raiding any and everything, and will eat whatever they can find.

As far as the hogs issues, they create lots of problems, both with vegetation, soil disturbance, wildlife species, etc. Hogs pose a major predation threat to ground nesting birds, but not so much to cavity nesters -- so long as the cavity nester is smart enough to utilize good, standing cavities more than about 3 feet off the ground. Like bears, these animals eat any and everything.

Below is a copy of a Message I sent to Evelyn last evening, which I mistakenly did not send to the list.

Thanks --J

I think the point of Evelyn's and KimMarie's Messages are that if we take the responsibility of erecting artificial cavities, we need to take the responsibility of protecting them. In some areas, once the birds get accustomed to artificial cavities, they will opt to use them over natural cavities -- especially if these birds are from the same family or were nestbox fledged (from another area). I have a paper somewhere around here that shows results from a study of this, but can't put my hands on it right now... If predators get used to receiving an easy reward at nestboxes,they will make it a habit to visit them, even if other food sources are available. In many species of predators, the young learn to forage from the parents, so it can become a perpetual cycle of raiding that begins with one
"lucky" individual. The kicker of the point is that we essentially "created" the situation by putting up boxes in the first place, so we have a responsibility to keep our eyes on them.

It's a similar situation with black bears that raid garbage cans, camp sites, and picnic areas. There's plenty of food around, but what's the easy target... so most areas now utilize "bear-proof" trash containers to keep from habitualizing the bears. I agree that they need to eat too, but
they become progressively more and more brave, and this eventually leads to direct conflicts with humans -- and we created the opportunity in the first place.

I love natural cavities as well as boxes, and both have their place. Some people choose not to "guard" them, while others do. Some people do not need to... may never need to. Either way, just be aware and observant, and if the need arises feel free to make the necessary adjustments, and (as you pointed out) use the experiences of others to alleviate the situation. Some people even "guard" natural cavities -- just tack a sheet of tin around a tree or snag, or use the mesh described by Keith Kridler-- but you have to consider whether or not the tree is alive and growing, as this will require adjustment over time (also realize that by tacking a live tree, you are creating avenues for pathogenic infection). A study by Dr. Chris Moorman, while he was "at" Clemson, looked at the
"life-span" of snags in the SEastern US. ON AVERAGE, a pine snag will have a 2-5 year life-span, while a hardwood can vary from 2-8 years. Take info like this into account if you are relying on natural cavities to provide nesting in an area -- you may need to CREATE another snag or erect
nestboxes in the future if they are one of the main limitiing factors for your area.

Keep sending along the good info, it's awesome. I like to hear everyone's experiences and reports, and learn something new everyday (or at least think about it in a different light).

Still no EABL nests around yet, but I now have 5 Caro chickadee nests in boxes as of Sat. Everyone is getting ready to nest though, b/c the titmice, chickadees, pine warblers, Caro wrens, EABL's, and even the yellow-throated warblers are coming to the feeders -- especially for any mealworms I set
out! I'll keep you posted

Jimmy Dodson
Asst Forest Manager -- NCSU Dept of Forestry

From: Bet Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net]
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 4:17 PM
Subject: HUNDREDS of reasons to monitor nestboxes

Last fall I set up a small trail at a closed landfill. Perfect bluebird habitat – away from houses, lots of grass land surrounded by trees. I put up 12 boxes of various types.

On my first monitoring trip there, I was thrilled to see 2 complete bluebird nests and one tree swallow nest. However, NONE of the other 9 were being used, even though birds were flying all around them, and they had bird ploppers on the roof. Know why?

Each one had DOZENS of wasps sitting inside.

I’m not sure they were paper wasps though – they were all black. No paper nests started. I’ll bring my camera next week.

Anyway, I mushed them and soaped the roof and walls.

I did a little web page to try to convince people to monitor – http://www.sialis.org/monitoring.htm . Last year I did one on tips to convince folks to monitor boxes that are not your own: http://www.sialis.org/pleasemonitor.htm

Your input is always most welcome.

Bet from CT

May all your blues be birds!

Hello,
I'm new to this list and new to bird boxes. We
just put up 8 boxes on an acre. Almost
immediately someone moved into one of the boxes.
We've not had a good look at it but we think it's
a house wren. There's a lot of them around. The
box is completely filled with dried grass. It's
hard to see the middle but I poked at it a bit
and it seems to be lined with feathers. Is it
fairly certain to be a house wren?

This leads to the second question: How do I
monitor the nest without being able to see into
it without poking and prying at it? Just leave
it alone?

Kathleen Holcomb, Santa Rosa, CA

Here in Mazzzchusetts house wren nests are made out of twigs, with a little (and I mean just a little) grass thrown in for a pseudo cup. If no twigs are available then maybe they would use all grass. If you have a pair of binoculars then just sit down in a lawn chair about sixty to seventy feet away and see who shows up.

Steve Hewlett
Framingham, MA

> As soon as you said feathers I thought Tree Swallows (they start with some
> grass then line with feathers, feathers, and more feathers) - but I see
> you're in CA
>
> Can one of our California members jump in here! Location does make a
> difference - you may have a bird there that some of us don't have
> experience with, but I don't believe House Wrens would use grass and
> feathers - they prefer twigs for the "outer nest" and will line the "hard
> to see" nest cup with a few feathers, animal hair and soft grass (at least
> that's my experience here in the North East). Again - we need someone
> from the West Coast to chime in here!
>
> As far as monitoring without "poking" around too much- we frequently use
> an automobile mechanics inspector mirror - it's small, portable, it
> resembles a dentist's mirror and is telescoping - go to any auto parts
> store and get one for under $5. I carry it with me when we check boxes -
> and even have a spare just in case I lose the original.
>
> kimmarie :)
> Buffalo/Varysburg, Western NY

From: MPD [mailto:imajefarm"at"hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 6:40 AM
To: bluebird-l"at"cornell.edu
Cc: MPD
Subject: Squashing Mama Bluebird in the birdhouse door!! ;(

Hi all... I'm posting this as a warning of what NOT to do: Yesterday I checked my EABB house that has 5 eggs-- we're just starting to incubate up here in Northern Lower Mi. I had my camera poised in my right hand, so I scratched on the house with my left hand to warn Mama (if she was inside) that I was there, hoping I could get a good closeup shot of her coming out the entry hole. Nothing. So I pulled the two pins that hold the top (it's a side door that opens from the top), and still nothing. I opened the door with my left hand just a little, still nothing. So, she must be gone. I opened the flap wider and suddenly 50# of bird explodes inside the box and is coming out right at my face which is peering into the box. I was startled and shoved the door shut and caught Mama EABB between the two pieces. It wasn't more than a second but with the speed I shut it, (how much force does it take to crush a rib or wing anyway?), I'm so afraid I hurt her! I pulled the door flap back and she blasted out, took off flying, dive bombed me a couple of times-- she was MAD! I don't blame her!

So. 1. I'm gonna leave the house unmessed with for a week so they forget and don't abandon the nest. 2. Presumeably if she could fly well enough to dive-bomb me she wasn't hurt badly, right?????? 3. Any other ideas? 4. Don't you all do this.....

I'm just sick about this and going out to check on her -- from afar-- today... How is is when you love something so much you inadvertently hurt it??? "You always hurt the one you love..." and all that?

Thanks,
Mavis in Michigan

Mavis, I had a similar thing happen once and the bird was just fine. I
remember we well how sick and guilty I felt, and I feel bad that you’re now
going through this. The mama certainly sounds fine to me, and I hope that
she will continue to reassure you.

Hugs!,

Rebecca J.
Columbia, MD

From: MPD [mailto:imajefarm"at"hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 5:34 PM
Subject: Squashed Mama Bluebird appears to be ok! :)

Hi all,

Thanks for the encouraging words!  Mama is going in/out, flying at will to/from the EABB house.  All appears to be well, but she won't go insidet unless Hubby sits on the roof.  Can't blame her for being nervous when I'm around...

WHEW!!!

Mavis in Michigan

From: David Middleton Edelen II [mailto:k98"at"bellsouth.net]
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005
Subject: Re: Finally; she's building!

Hello all,
As y'all know I have been commenting on the antics of some BBs I have been watching. The female finally showed up yesterday after not seeing her in a week or two. Perhaps she came around when I wasn't looking. But anyway, I was looking out my back door across my back yard just now (7:15am) watching a male and female BB frolicking around, sitting on the back fence near the back BB house, etc.. I thought perhaps they had chosen that one. Anyway, they flew off and I was standing there watching some sort of Flycatcher and suddenly the female BB flew diagonally across my yard, from between two houses which the apartments where the pines are. The exciting part is she had a mouth full of straw or pine needles. She flew around the corner of my house to where I have BB houses # 2 and 3 about 20' apart. Those are the ones that the have been going into and investigating for a week or two.
This is so exciting. I am sort of leary of going near those houses. I am scared I will scare her and run her off before she gets started. Should I wait for few days and give her time to build, etc.. I can't wait untill I can see a nest and tell y'all about it.
Take care,
Dave