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Problems with insecticides on a bluebird trail (Part 4)In addition to Messages that have appeared in the Bluebird Mailing Lists on this topic, the following are on the Audubon Society of Omaha website: Predators and Problems On The Bluebird Trail From: MSBOC"at"aol.com I have a question. My lawn is loaded with voles or moles. There are holes...and holes. And holes. A few years ago I used a "natural" lawn company. They sprinkled something to rid the lawn of grubs, but that did no good obviously. (It certainly did not seem to hurt the bluebirds.) Now I know I need to go for something more powerful. The bluebirds are back too. From what I've read, I have to keep my dog off the grass until it rains and dries. That I can handle. Even if I apply the chemical right before it rains, it's the bluebirds, of course, that I'm concerned about. Comments? Has anyone dealt with this problem, and if so what did you use and what were your experiences? Thanks in advance.... From: "Keith & Sandy Kridler" kridler"at"1starnet.com Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas Moles are not that hard to trap once you learn their habits. The closed loop mole trap works better than the spike trap and is safer where kids are going to be near the trap. Voles go through population cycles and it sounds like more kestrel and screech owl boxes need to be in the general area:-)). Repeating vole traps can be purchased or made by burying a five gallon bucket in the ground, cover the top but leave small entrance holes where they will fall over into the bucket and drown in soapy water. Hunting perches for owls and hawks can be installed made from pipe with a 12" long horizontal wood perch installed so that they can sit about 1012 feet off of the ground, If there are no other good natural perches for them to hunt from. Spraying a lawn for ridding it of moles is like General Sherman burning Atlanta to get rid of the Confederates. They just have to move out of the yard until the earthworms return and then they will also return. KK Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 10:18:48 -0600 On Fri, 15 Mar 2002 MSBOC"at"aol.com wrote: ... Keep in mind that spraying potent pesticides may briefly eliminate the targeted insect pests, but they are also harmful to beneficials (such as the above mentioned earthworms) and pollinators like bees, moths and butterfiles. Pesticide companies advise that people and pets be kept off treated lawn for good reason. We used to camp at an RV park in Florida. Our neighbors traveled with a toy collie that they'd tie out in the grass. The husband was hellbent on ridding their small greenpatch of ants, so would fill a coffee can punched with holes with granulated Dursban and methodically shake the stuff like powdered sugar over the entire lawn. Well, one day the poor wife couldn't figure out why her little dog wouldn't eat, was trembling, salivating and had the runs. I told her he probably had insecticide poisoning and should be taken to the closest vet. We left that day so we never heard the outcome. But it stands to reason that if a substance affects insects' nervous systems, larger doses of it will affect animals higher up the food chain. A Google search on 'moles' indictes your moles are feeding on grubs, so yes, reducing the grub population would encourage moles to relocate. To avoid harming BBs and beneficials, why not go the environmentally friendly route one more time? Try nematodes or milky spore disease (a biological control agent) to eliminate the grubs, and mole repellents for the moles. Gardensalive.com sells these products. I also have a recipe for a homemade castor oil-based mole repellent that my garden club swears by. If anyone wants it I'll send it along. A more agressive method of eliminating both moles (worm/grub eaters and diggers of tunnels) and voles (rodents - seed eaters that use the tunnels) is to put a mousetrap under an overturned flowerpot placed over the burrow opening. A gardening friend with a mole/vole vendetta claims 100% success. Good luck and happy Spring! From: "Allene Miller" acarlenea"at"hotmail.com you probably will end up gasing them. This is the safe way
for other things except things that live in the tunnel with
the moles, i.e,.mice. I believe the chemical or gas
used is formaldehyde but I'd check with the CEOfice. Also, once
the moles have eaten the grubs, which do a lot of damage to
the roots of your grass and flowers and whatever, you should
take something heavy and roll over the tunneled area, the grass
roots will then make contact with soil and continue to grow
and the rough places will be gone and so will the grubs.
This is safest to everything except the grubs. To: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu (BLUEBIRD-L) ues a spring loaded mole trap it works great i have used them for years try one you will like it,, and you want be takeing a chance on any poision at all Al I have a question. My lawn is loaded with voles or moles. ... From: "Bonnie Boex/Ed Baker" bakerbon"at"earthlink.net Bonnie Boex Su: A cautionary suggestion! Those voles and moles are in the food chain and do not exist autonomously in the environment. How important is your lawn and yard? Is it worth the death of a Kestral; a hawk; or any other wildlife that depends on those voles and moles as their food source.. Also, after you've killed them with chemicals, you will have created a "vacancy." In nature, something else will step in to fill that vacancy and the chances are good you'll just get more moles and voles. You're better off making your yard in-hospitable and unwelcoming to them. Use the tonic listed below. It will drive them out of your yard and they'll be alive to spread the word to other voles & moles that your yard isn't the best place to go. We humans think we're the only mammals that can communicate, but that's not true. Here's a tonic called "Mole Chaser." -----Original Message----- ... Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 16:15:07 -0600 Since I had such a good response I thought it easier if I posted the recipe here (and thanks to Bonnie B for her "Mole Chaser" recipe, too): **** 1 TBS Castor oil (available at any pharmacy) Blend oil and detergent until it looks like shaving cream,
then add water and blend. In watering can mix 2 TBS of Mole
Away with 1/2 gallon of water. Sprinkle on the affected area.
Works especially well if the soil is wet after a rain. Castor oil is supposed to be very unappealing to moles. Our garden club members ask for this recipe every summer, so it must be good! ---- From: "Gary Springer" springer"at"alltel.net Just wondering why the voles and moles with all their holes and tunnels couldn't be just another one of nature's welcome guests in the yard right along with the bluebirds. At least they don't leave white spots on the car. I can only imagine that after they've cleared a yard of the prey that attracts them and move on to better hunting grounds that credit for exterminating them will be given to whatever gimmick was deployed at the time. About the chickadees in the nest box set up for bluebirds; I'd put up yet another nest box or two and reduce the hole to inch and an eighth after the chickadee lays its eggs so the bluebird won't be able to evict the chickadees. Gary Springer From: "BONNIE A. YEAGER" dement"at"frognet.net A few months back someone on BB-L had a mole/vole/burrowing critter problem. Check out www.GardensAlive.com . They have a product called Mole-Med Dry. This product is supposed to get rid of burrowing critters. It is also supposed to be environmentally safe (castor oil). Gardens Alive also sells Bird Grub. It is a bird feed supplement - 100% dehydrated caterpillars. They also sell a suet cake called Hi-Vitality Grub cakes. These suet cakes are vegetable based and contain dehydrated caterpillars. I have not tried any of these products and don't own any Gardens Alive stock. Fred Yeager, From: "Kellams, Dina M" dmkellam"at"indiana.edu I've still not been able to get a good look in my box due to a divebombing papa, but I did catch a quick peek and saw at least 2 babies waiting for some food! We are having a SERIOUS bagworm (aka tentworms) problem in our area (I have hundreds crawling on the outside of my house - disgusting) and all of my neighbors are going around spraying them with some Ortho poison. Much to their dismay, I told them I was not going to do that because I was worried about my birds eating a poisoned bug, but that I had been going around knocking them off and spraying them with the water hose in my effort to fight them. What have others done about their pest problems? I have seen the blues in my neighbor's yard so I really hope they don't pick up one of his poisoned bugs.... Dina Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 14:48:49 -0400 on 5/6/02 10:08 AM, Kellams, Dina M at dmkellam"at"indiana.edu wrote: I've still not been able to get a good look in my box due to a ... A few years ago, we suffered through an onslaught of caterpillar worms of Biblical proportions. Our house and every tree literally seemed to be crawling with the little beggars. We checked around and found that the safest way to controll them is with a 50-50 mixture of liquid dish soap and water. We filled several spray bottles and handed them out to the grandkids. It might work with tent worms also. For worms that were too high to reach, we first knocked them down with a blast from the hose. (They immediately fall, a good indication the mixture works, and will die soon after.) The carcass will form a "V". I don't know about tent worms, but we couldn't find anything that would touch a caterpillar worm. We tried feeding a few healthy ones to the fish and they didn't like them either. Good luck, I know what you're going through! larry... -- From: "Doug Rohde" d.rohde"at"attbi.com Highland Village, Texas Bagworms and Tent Caterpillars are not the same critter, although both are members of the same order: Bagworm - newly hatched bagworms make conical silk bags that hang from tree limbs/twigs. Larvae can often be seen hanging from silken treads before building their bag. Tent Caterpillar - form a silk tent in the tree crotch. The same natural controls can be used for both: 1) release
of tricogramma wasps, or 2) spray with citrus oil (delimonene)
products, or 3) spray Bacillus thuringiensis product. All of
these should be available through a local garden center or can
be purchased on-line (www.gardensalive.com, and others). It
is absolutely not necessary to use Ortho or any other pesticide
which will kill beneficial insects and can injure birds, animals,
humans. . ... From: "Dottie, Hickory Hollow, Brown County, Indiana"
yumyumkatts"at"voyager.net Has anyone used this insecticide or know anything about it? GardenGuides says it is natural insecticide. I don't use chemicals so I am thinking about placing an order but thought I would ask the List first. This is what the write up says about it: "Pyola is a broad-spectrum spray that combines pyrethrin, a long-popular natural insecticide derived from pyrethrum flowers, with canola oil, extracted from rapeseed. Unlike most pesticides, it controls all stages of the insect's life cycle, including eggs." I saw Neem oil in the store and checked out the label and it had a hazardous warning. Does anyone know if there are different Neem oil products? Is all Neem oil safe to use? I appreciate your help. The Japanese beetles are just around the corner. Dottie, Hickory Hollow From: "Doug Rohde" d.rohde"at"attbi.com Dottie, There is a great selection of natural insecticides, depending
on the pest and circumstances. To the extent possible we want
to kill only the "bad bugs", not the beneficial bugs
and/or the polinators. The links below provide information regarding
some of the natural insecticide choices.
http://www.dirtdoctor.com/article.asp?id=599&Parsed=true&Param0=pyrethrum
Although Pyrethrum (note the spelling) is a natural product, it is VERY toxic and would be my last choice of the natural products. Pyrethrum insecticide is made by grinding up the leaves, stems and flowers of the Painted Daisy (Chrysanthemum cinerariifolium). Pyrethrin (note the spelling) is a synthetic product that is even more toxic. Additionally, some Pyrethrum products on the market have PBO (piperonyl butoxide) added. PBO is a synthetic chemical that is known to affect liver function. So Pyrethrin and PBO products aren't on my list at all. NEEM is a natural product that I use regularly. It is labeled as a repellant of the Japanese Beetles you're worried about. It is a botanical insecticide extracted from the seed of the tropical NEEM tree from India. NEEM works by preventing molting, suppressing feeding or repelling the bugs depending on the insect. It does not harm humans, birds, plants, earthworms, or most beneficial insects and it is registered for use against a broad range of insects. NEEM is most effective against insects, which pass through all stages of metamorphosis eggs, larvae, and adults. Doug Rohde Bluebirds across Texas ... one nestbox at a time ----- Original Message ----- ... From: "Bill Darnell" bdarnel3"at"bellsouth.net One word of caution about "natural" things: Ricin (sp?) is one of the deadliest poisons. It is refined from the castor bean. Bill TN Dottie, ... From: "Gilliam, Jay" jay.gilliam"at"pioneer.com You are so correct on that one, Bill. "Natural" or "organic" does not equal "safe". Ricin doesn't even need to be refined, castor bean seeds are very lethal by themselves if ingested (it even says so on the seed packet). Almost all of the toxins I work with are produced by fungi or bacteria (so they are natural products) but they are also all very harmful/lethal if ingested, inhaled, or contacted with skin/membranes. That's why I have to work at a high level of containment when working with them. As far as Neem oil, it is probably one of the safer botanicals to work with. The active chemical in Neem is called Azadirachtin. It appears fairly non-toxic (but hasn't been fully investigated) but there are some warnings listed for those (Dottie, ie.) who would like to use it: May cause eye irritation. Jay Gilliam -----Original Message----- ... From: "Fread J" firefrost2"at"hotmail.com In answer to Dottie's question about Pyola Insecticide: It appears that it is the use of the word "natural"
that is causing confusion and misconception here. Simply put
"natural" means occurs in nature. Radioactivity occurs
in nature, thus making it "natural". So occurs one
of the very most toxic poisons known to man, : ricin, a derivative
of the common Castor Bean plant, also making it "natural"......see
where I am going with this, Dottie? "Natural" is a
popular catch-all phrase. Let's strip away that word and look
at the chemical compositions and their effects. The active ingredient
is Pyrethrin, one of two liquid esters derived from Pyrethrum
(C21H28O3 or C22H28O5) that are used as insecticides. Pyrethrum,
a nonvolatile hydrocarbon related to kerosene, is a similar
insecticide derived from a form of chrysanthemum-like flowers.
The fact that they are derived from plants causes some people
to think - a point played up by companies using this toxin
in their products - that they are safe. Lots of plants are toxic,
some in small quantities, others in large. Just because it comes
from something lush and ornamental does not mean it can't
be lethal. Oleander, azalea, mistletoe, and foxglove are just
a few of the pretty - and highly toxic - plants with which we
live. Permethrin is a synthetic pyrethrin (C21H20Cl2O3). In
other words, it is a man-made poison that is a copy of two poisons
found in plants. When chemical manufacturers make permethrin
or extract pyrethrin for use in their own products or for sale
to other companies to use as an ingredient in other products,
their "brand" of pyrethrin or permethrin is given
a unique name. Some of the names you may see on such products
include: Look at the following side effects of coming in contact with
these poisons. Laboratory tests suggest that permethrin is more acutely toxic
to children than to adults. A known carcinogen. Causes chromosomal
damage in hamsters and mice; deformities in amphibians; blood
abnormalities in birds. Your "Pyola Insecticide" claims
to have not included Piperonyl butoxide, While pyrethroids may be amongst the least toxic of insecticides, they are an excitatory nerve poison, acting upon the sodium ion channels in nerve cell membranes: by sending a train of impulses rather than a single one, they overload the pathways, blocking the pazzzge of sodium ions across cell membranes; similar in action to organophosphates (which include the now banned DDT); inhibits ATPase, which affects the release of acetylcholine, monoamine oxidase-A and acetylcholine; inhibits GABAa receptors, resulting in convulsions and excitability (and more 'minor' problems such as sleep disorders); known to be carcinogenic; liver damage thyroid function cause chromosomal abnormalities in mice and hamsters; are highly toxic to insects, fish, and birds; mimic estrogen, leading to health problems in females and feminizing effects in males, including lowered sperm counts and abnormal breast development; sublethal doses have produced a wide array of abnormal behaviors, including aggression, and disruption in learning and learned behaviors The alternative depends on what you are trying to do. In the case of commercial growers, gardens, schools, there in a growing body of information on Integrated Pest Management (IPM). In the home, there are a wide range of non-toxic alternatives depending on what type of pest you are trying to control. Information and links on IMP and home alternatives can be found at my Natural Pest Control pestcont.html page and at the Institute of IPM http://www.learnipm.com/ site. I am unsure of the reason they are adding "Canola Oil", perhaps a "low fat insecticide"? The addition of horticultural grade oil (also known as 'dormant oil' and is 99.97% pure) to many insecticides acts as a "smothering agent" to all soft-bodied insects and all insect eggs. To say that one does not "use chemicals around the house" is inaccurate for we live in a saturated world of chemicals both man-made and "natual". Fread J. Loane From: "Marysue" mamakitticat"at"earthlink.net
Here's some info on "Canola Oil" from a human health standpoint, gleaned from another email list I'm on. May have some value in killing pests after all. I've known for a few years it's nasty stuff and we use only Olive Oil now, green or light, depending on the use in cooking, etc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marysue From: "Gary Springer" springer"at"alltel.net The "Safe" and "Natural" are not interchangeable" posts remind me of the natural toxic properties of cedar which prevent this wood from decaying even when buried in the ground for long periods. There is almost unanimous agreement in birding circles that artificially treated lumber should not be used for nest boxes. This same treated lumber is used extensively for construction of decks and swing sets to which young children are exposed every day without any public safety alerts. Yet, cedar, that contains chemicals which poison the wood and make it impossible for microbes to cause decay, the same as treated wood, and which many other pet hobbyists recognize as unsafe, is still widely used for nest box construction. As with barns made from pine and never painted yet still standing after more than 100 years, nest box construction design is what makes the box last longer, not toxins. So what is it about cedar that makes so many birders willing to accept the risk associated with the naturally occurring poisons in this wood? http://www.realbirdhomes.com/Birdhouse%20Lesson%208.htm Gary Springer From: "Jeffrey A. Holbrook" mycteria"at"stny.rr.com Gary Springer wrote: So what is it about cedar that makes so many birders willing to accept the risk associated with the naturally occurring poisons in this wood? http://www.realbirdhomes.com/Birdhouse%20Lesson%208.htm My answer to this question is below: Bluebirds do not live long enough to develop the type of cancers,
etc. (that you espoused concerns about in the past) with the
"poisons" that are found in cedar. They are far more
likely to die and nearly always do from a myriad of causes totally
unrelated to your toxin concerns. A change of box material for
these reasons will not yeild any significant changes in cavity
nesting mortality, at a young or advanced age. A house of pine
or cedar, if well managed, will give the blues a chance, no
house at all for fear of harming blues due to these toxins,
will not. FYI, you had better quit eatting tomatos while you are at it. The tomato, closely related to tobacco, contains a plethora of toxins that are known to cause cancer...in humans. So what makes so many eaters willing to accept the risk associated with the naturally occuring poisons in this fruit? Insert material and activity of choice in the above paragraph, from having pets, to driving cars! From: "Dusty Bleher" dusty"at"fsinc.com Hello "Marysue" and all; Marysue, your point is valid and well taken. Just because something is "natural" doesn't mean it's safe. After all, tobacco is natural, as are a nearly endless litany of some of the most poisonous materials available to us. But that's where your Message should end. Distressingly these days, I find that I'm often called upon to correct misinformation and other distortions of the truth. I regret that you might take my "corrections" of your post as an attack on you and the beliefs you hold dear. This is simply not the case. The truth is still only the truth. There is nothing that I can do to change the underlying rules that apply to that truth. The information that you posted as gospel, just ain't so! It is a snippet of a hysterical screed circulated by (an) unknown author(s) thought to be related to the Cottonseed, Palm, Peanut, and Olive oil producing cartels. As is often the case these days, largely bogus information laced with truths and half-truths is presented to an increasingly uncritical readership as if it had the weight of scientific research behind it. *I*, however, as one who is able to read, collate, compare, evaluate, and think, do not fall into that category. Unlike the collective consciousness that serves as "common knowledge" these days, I don't need someone's opinion in order to "understand" something. I come from the "old school", when I want an opinion, I'll form one! Those of you that may have read that piece of misinformation and felt smugly "satisfied" by what you read, might consider availing yourselves of the amazing educational and informational opportunities afforded by your local public library or other institutions of collecting and storing real knowledge. Science is still science, and truth is still truth. Belief has absolutely ZERO to do with any of those. Only FACTS matter. Marysue's Message header snipped for clarity all. I've known for a few years it's nasty stuff and we use
only Olive Here are the FACTS: ASSERTION: ASSERTION: ASSERTION: ASSERTION: ASSERTION: ASSERTION: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- An appreciation of what this scare is based upon begins with a better understanding of what canola oil and how it came into being. The rape plant (Brassica napus) is a member of the mustard family, as claimed in the e-mail. However, before associations between rape and mustard gas set in too strongly, it should be noted turnip, cabbage, watercress, horseradish, and radish are also members of this family of plants. Rapeseed oil has been used for cooking for centuries in Europe, India, China, and Japan. As modern science is finding out, its previous use wasn't necessarily a guarantee of safety. Cooking at high temperatures with unrefined rapeseed oil now appears to be related to an increased risk of lung cancer because at high temperatures cooking oil gives off chemicals capable of causing mutations in cells. Unrefined rapeseed oil is particularly notable for this, but other oils also have this association. Those intent upon doing large amounts of wok cooking with any sort of cooking oil should therefore lower their frying temperature from the 240°C to 280°C called for in Chinese cooking to 180°C. Rapeseed oil naturally contains a high percentage (30-60%) of erucic acid, a substance associated with heart lesions in laboratory animals. For this reason rapeseed oil was not used for consumption in the United States prior to 1974, although it was used in other countries. (Americans chose to use it as a lubricant to maintain Allied naval and merchant ships during World War II.) In 1974, rapeseed varieties with a low erucic content were introduced. Scientists had found a way to replace almost all of rapeseed's erucic acid with oleic acid, a type of monounsaturated fatty acid. (This change was accomplished through the cross-breeding of plants, not by the techniques commonly referred to as "genetic engineering.") By 1978, all Canadian rapeseed produced for food use contained less than 2% erucic acid. The Canadian seed oil industry rechristened the product "canola oil" (Canadian oil) in 1978 in an attempt to distance the product from negative associations with the word "rape." Canola was introduced to American consumers in 1986. By 1990, erucic acid levels in canola oil ranged from 0.5% to 1.0%, in compliance with U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) standards. This light, tasteless oil's popularity is due to the structure of its fats. It is lower in saturated fat (about 6%) than any other oil. Compare this to the high saturated fat content of peanut oil (about 18%) and palm oil (at an incredibly high 79%). It also contains more cholesterol-balancing monounsaturated fat than any oil except olive oil and has the distinction of containing Omega-3 fatty acids, a polyunsaturated fat reputed to not only lower both cholesterol and triglycerides, but also to contribute to brain growth and development. In other words, it's a healthy oil. One shouldn't feel afraid to use it because of some Internet scare loosely based on half-truths and outright lies. By (and excerpted from): Barbara Mikkelson From: "Gary Springer" springer"at"alltel.net Hi Jeff, You wrote: " Bluebirds do not live long enough to develop the type
of cancers, etc. I don't recall explicitly expressing concerns for cancers in bluebirds, but this is possible. Cancers do develop in small animals in weeks or months. You wrote : "They (bluebirds) are far more likely to die and nearly
always Because toxins adversely affect health, and because healthier stronger and faster birds have a better chance of surviving most of the"far more likely" "myriad of causes" of death you cited, I believe it is likely the conclusion that "A change of box material(to one that does not contain toxins) for these reasons will not yield any significant changes in cavity nesting mortality, at a young or advanced age." is inaccurate. You also wrote: "A house of pine or cedar, if well managed, will give the blues a chance, no house at all for fear of harming blues due to these toxins, will not." I do promote putting up nest boxes made from materials such as those called pine, which is the name for dozens of kinds of wood, and other woods that do not display the persisting toxic properties of cedar wood. So I ask again, since nest box construction design can be used to extend the useful life of nest boxes without toxins, why the pervasive, intentional, and needless exposure of bluebirds to the risk of the toxins in cedar by putting up nest boxes made from this material when there are so many alternative woods that do not display the toxic properties of cedar that are so strong that it is unfit for termites even after decades of being buried in the ground? For more clarification and concerns please read: http://www.realbirdhomes.com/Birdhouse%20Lesson%208.htm Sincerely, Gary Springer PS The comments on tomatoes, pets and driving are irrelevant
to the topic of bluebird nest box construction. ... From: "Stan, Apple Valley/St. Paul, MN [44.44N, -93.10W]"
stan1bb"at"frontiernet.net Hi Randy! This sounds to me like a good, valid question for Scott's http://scotts.com/ Let us know if you find out anything. Happy birding! Stan ... Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 21:45:17 -0400 This is my first experience with Bluebirding - we had an acitve nest 2 weeks after we put the house up. We are thrilled. We had 4 little eggs and they all hatched. I have been worried sick about blow flies. I don't think we have any fortunately. However it rains every day down here and I expected the nest to be damp, although it doesn't really seem to be. I have been searching for Rotenone Powder which I understand is safe for the bluebirds if used cautiously. We can't find Rotenone - but have been told that Sevin Powder is safe, I didn't see this recommendation in any of the literature I have been reading. we have been checking our nest - since I don't see any evidence of blow fly larvae I am not using anything, but since I am a hooked bluebirder I want this information for the future. Our birds are between 5 to 7 days old I think - they are showing signs of little feather sheaths. I am afraid to pick the birds up (to search them for larvae) - they seem so fragile. Do you really recommend picking them up for examination? At the risk of displaying my ignorance I have to ask - what exactly does brooding involve. Is it more than sitting on the eggs or keeping the young chicks warm. My book tells me at day 7 brooding by the female stops. We see the male going in and out of the nest now - is he more active in the feeding now than the female? Also what are HOSP? I know it is some type of predator, and I think it is a bird of some type. Thank you. Sally Quinn Sally Quinn Hernando, Florida (North of Tampa, South of Ocala) From: "Keith & Sandy Kridler" kridler"at"1starnet.com Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas You should NOT use either rotenone or sevin powder in any bird nests as these are not licensed for use in bird nests! In the past they have been used for poultry and other livestock but due to many years of testing have been removed from this use. Sevin is considered so hazardous that it is limited to a ONCE A YEAR use where livestock may feed on the treated vegetation. The problem with these dusts is they come in MANY different % grades or strengths and while a .5 percent might actually be safe there is some powder that is actually 50% Sevin or 100 times what might be safe! Also how to you determine the correct "dose" for any powder in a nest box? Many Purple martin landlords in the past have placed a heaping teaspoon full of DE (diatomaceous earth) or sulphur or Sevin or rotenone in a single nest compartment. While farmers are limited by law to safely applying only a single dose not to exceed a couple of pounds per acre! This teaspoon dose would probably equal several hundred pounds per acre! Birds rely on excellent lung capacity for their survival and we humans have found that applying talcum powder to the butts of newborn human babies can damage our lung material so we should NOT apply any dust of any type in the "baby beds" of any young birds! Video of the Purple Martin compartments has shown that young birds exercise their wings in the nest compartments and those containing even small amounts of "added dusts" under the nesting material end up creating a "whirlwind" of dust, KNOWN to kill various living organisms, everytime the birds exercise. Most experts now agree that changing nests is the BEST way to "treat" for blowfly infestations. Since we have so many "new" members on the list again it would be nice if someone would post Terry Whitworth's "blowfly website" for the list to read and those who actually have major problems with the blowflies how they have found is the easiest way to detect these creatures and how best to reduce the population of them in your nestboxes! KK Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 08:36:17 -0500 At 09:45 PM 7/3/02 -0400, Tim Quinn wrote: ... Sevin is listed as extremely toxic to birds! The only insecticide to consider using inside a nestbox would be one for caged birds, and then only if there is a real problem. Birds in nature manage to survive infestations of blowflies, mites and other critters, so finding a few is no cause for alarm. Kate Oschwald From: "Fawzi P. Emad femad <at> fpemad <dot> com I'd like to remind you folks that caged birds are very different from boxed birds! As the owner of six parrots I can tell you the cages are wide open all around. Even then, we don't use anything beyond mild detergent to clean the cages. In a box such as the Bluebird has, it is much more confined and the effects of chemicals/powders is much more pronounced. I clean my boxes using a scraper, the kind a painter might use. That is all I use, except if the box is really dirty (like from a Tree Swallow --sometimes) then I bring the box home for a good rinsing with plain water using my garden hose. Let it dry, then put it back in the line (I have many boxes in the line as spares.) Fawzi Fawzi Emad in Laytonsville, Maryland From: "ke4fej1" ke4fej1"at"email.msn.com Hi All, I remember years ago learning from somewhere that birds will kill ants and rub them on them. I don't remember what kind but I have lots of red ants here. And I have actually wittnessed the birds killing the ants on my patio, and then with the ant in their beak rubbing the ant and beak under their wings. It is supposed to be a natural mite repellant. If this is true, would some smooshed ants put in the bottom of the box help anything? Actually I think the birds know what to do most of the time. And what I know is so little. I'm going to try not so hard to hard to correct what I don't know. As to the Blow Flys in FL, after visiting Hardee County they said that they never had any problem with any kind of bugs. Sounds like a plus to me! Christy Sarasota, FL ----- Original Message ----- ... From: "Doug Rohde" d.rohde"at"attbi.com None of these products would be on my list for use. I don't believe any of them are labeled for bird nest type usage and it would be extremely difficult to administer a proper dosage for such a small treatment area. (It is widely speculated that Sevin will be the next product withdrawn from the the market). The following are excerpts from the websites cited at the bottom of this note (for those who desire the details). Rotenone: Sevin (Carbaryl): Pyrethrin: Rotenone: Sevin Pyrethrin: ----- Original Message ----- ... Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 08:22:14 -0400 Haleya Priest Amherst MA This year the Phoebes came back with their mites. I didn't realize it till they had 3 eggs. I started with the recommendation to use caged bird spray available at local pet stores. God forbid, I was in such a panic when I saw those little mites again I sprayed the nest with 3 eggs in the nest!! After a while I realized what I had done and I rinsed the eggs off but the nest was still saturated with the spray. I figured this would be an experiment to see what would happen. Well, all hatched and all fledged. This is after two or three
periodic sprayings worth and we did get rid of the mites during
this time period. Since it didn't kill the eggs, I figured this
stuff really must be ok to use carefully and in moderation. Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 06:25:27 -0400 From: "Karen Louise Lippy" brdbrain"at"superpa.net ... From: "emcooper" emcooper"at"bayou.com ... From: "Keith & Sandy Kridler" kridler"at"1starnet.com From: "Karen Louise Lippy" brdbrain"at"superpa.net ... Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:47:16 -0700 ... From: "Fread J" firefrost2"at"hotmail.com Carbofuran is a broad spectrum insecticide that is sprayed directly onto soil and plants just after emergence to control beetles, nematodes and rootworm. The greatest use of carbofuran is on alfalfa and rice, with turf and grapes making up most of the remainder. Earlier uses were primarily on corn crops. It occurs in liquid and granular formulations. Carbofuran is soluble in water and is moderately persistent in soil. Its half-life is 30 to 120 days. In soil, carbofuran is degraded by chemical hydrolysis and microbial processes. Hydrolysis occurs more rapidly in alkaline soils. Carbofuran also breaks down in sunlight. It has a high potential for groundwater contamination. It is my understanding that Carbofuran is allowed for use on only a few U.S. crops, and will soon be banned from use on corn and sorghum in California. In 1974, Congress passed the Safe Drinking Water Act. This
law requires EPA to determine safe levels of chemicals in drinking
water which do or may Following a Special Review, the EPA initiated a ban on all granular formulations of carbofuran which became effective on September 1, 1994. Before 1991, 80% of the total usage of carbofuran was in granular formulations. The ban was established to protect birds and is not related to human health concerns. Bird kills have occurred when birds ingested carbofuran granules, which resemble grain seeds and when predatory or scavenging birds have ingested small birds or mammals which had eaten carbofuran pellets. There is no ban on liquid formulations of carbofuran. Liquid formulations of carbofuran are classified as Restricted Use Pesticides (RUP) because of their acute oral and inhalation toxicity to humans. Granular formulations are also classified as RUP's, but for a different reason; their toxicity to birds. Liquid formulations bear the Signal Word WARNING. Granular formulations bear the Signal Word DANGER. Formulations of carbofuran are in toxicity class I - highly toxic or toxicity class II - moderately toxic. Carbofuran is highly toxic to birds. One granule is sufficient to kill a small bird. Bird kills have occurred when birds ingested carbofuran granules, which resemble grain seeds in size and shape, or when predatory or scavenging birds have ingested small birds or mammals that have eaten carbofuran pellets. Carbofuran is highly toxic to many fish. This information was extracted and composed utilizing files from the Pesticide Information Project of Cooperative Extension Offices of Cornell University, Oregon State University, the University of Idaho, and the University of California at Davis and the Institute for Environmental Toxicology, Michigan State University. With this knowledge available, why would they wish to use the granular forulation if not to erradicate birds consuming the grain? Fread J. Loane From: "Karen Harder" karenh"at"praxisworks.org I just received the following from the Audubon Society! "Great news! Thanks to your participation in the public comment period, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has changed its course, and denied the use of 4,500 pounds of granular carbofuran on rice fields in Louisiana! Granular carbofuran is one of the world's most potent bird-killing pesticides. One tiny granule can kill a songbird. Had the pesticide been applied to rice fields in Louisiana, hundreds of bird species would have been threatened, with wading birds and neotropical migrant shorebirds like the Buff-breasted Sandpiper and Short-billed Dowitcher at the highest risk. Rice farmers in Louisiana had requested authorization to apply more than two tons of this bird-killing pesticide to 10,000 acres of rice fields in southwest Louisiana. EPA initially intended to grant an "emergency use" application of the pesticide, but was forced by Audubon and our partners in conservation to open a five-day public comment period. During this very brief comment period, EPA received more than 5,000 public comments - including over 3,800 letters from Audubon supporters -- urging them to deny any further use of carbofuran On Thursday, July 25, EPA responded by stopping use of the bird-killing pesticide! Many thanks to you for your participation in this effort - it made a difference! "To keep informed of other action on conservation issues, sign up to receive Audubon's Advisory - our free twice-monthly update. Click this link to start receiving your Advisory today, and help protect birds, wildlife and their habitat tomorrow! http://www.capitolconnect.com/audubon/registration.asp " Karen Harder -- Cape Porpoise, Maine Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 09:25:20 -0700 Dear Dot and friends, Yes, Dot "When you have birds, you don't need chemicals" and that is what my Bio-Diversity program is all about. I did an interview with a reporter from Grape Grower Magazine last Friday, the article will be about Using Barn Owls for Rodent Control. Though the interview was mostly about Barn Owls, I also talked about Bluebirds and their place in history with farmers dating back to colonial America. Old time farmers that I knew out here told me about Bluebirds mentioning that they "use to see flocks of Bluebirds out in the fields eating insects, now we rarely see them anymore." I also talked about Bats for controlling mosquito populations. Everyone should start thinking about employing bats on their trails. One little brown bat will consume 3,000 mosquitoes a night and the bat could very well be our front line soldier in dealing with this West Nile Virus scourge that seems to be crossing this great land ours. I also spoke about American Kestrels, Screech Owls and even the pest birds. I do not want to stand on a soap box preaching to the devout or talk about chemical companies and there agenda, but the more we all talk to an uninformed public about the important benefits of beneficial avian, building, erecting and managing nest boxes properly the better in my opinion. The uninformed are uniformed of being uniformed so I'm doing what I can do to to inform the uninformed. Fond regards to all and as always.... Happy Bluebird Trails To You, E-mail: wildwingco"at"earthlink.net "Dottie, Hickory Hollow, Brown County, Indiana" wrote: ... Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 09:41:28 -0400 Hi List - Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 08:56:19 -0400 Hi List- From: "Keith & Sandy Kridler" kridler"at"1starnet.com Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, TX Parent birds tend to only feed the young birds who reach the highest and beg the loudest in a very crowded nest....They do not wake a young bird simply to feed it or they do not force feed those too sick to beg for food. KK From: "d.rohde" d.rohde"at"attbi.com Lisa et al, The active ingredient in GrubX is imidaclorprid. According to the EPA it is "highly toxic" to certain bird species, including but not limited to house sparrow, canary, pigeon, quail. Based on test results, EPA's Ecological Effects Branch concluded that the agency's "levels of concern" were exceeded for both non-endangered and endangered songbirds. Other problems in some birds include eggshell thinning, decreased weight and reduced egg production and hatching success (at varying exposure levels). In addition it is toxic at extremely low concentrations to some species of aquatic animals. It is highly toxic to honey bees, earthworms, lady beetles and lacewings. Also according to the EPA it "has the potential to leach to ground water ... its high solubility and mobility are concerns for transport to surface water by dissolved runoff". The above information was taken from the following website: http://www.pesticide.org/imidacloprid.pdf Doug p.s. In Texas there are over 100 species of June bugs (white grubs), most of which do NOT damage plants. ----- Original Message ----- ... Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 08:41:34 -0700 Dear Lisa, Doug and friends, It maybe be a little to late in the year to suggest this, but thought I'd share this information with you so your can pass it onto your neighbors that are using GrubX. My friend Bob Tanem, who for owned and operated a nursery business for over 35 years and is a radio talk show host in San Francisco on AM560 KSFO every Sunday morning from 7:00am to 10:00am (I've been a guest on his show talking about the benefits of cavity nesting birds in the garden), is a big believer in the use of "Beneficial Nematode" for controlling grubs and other garden pests. "Beneficial Nematode" are a non-poisonous solution to your insect pest challenges. Here are just a few web sites about "Beneficial Nematode"
http://www.extremelygreen.com/nematodeguide.cfm
O/T: For those with deer challenges, Bob also has a Field Guide about Deer Resistant Planting and you can check it out at his web site at: http://www.bobtanem.com/ Happy Bluebird Trails To You, "d.rohde" wrote: Lisa et al, ... From: "Anne-Marie Palermino" ampalermino"at"msn.com Last year I had a grub infestation (larvae of the Japanese
beetle and after researching the subject , only applications
in the fall have any effect). in my case the result was far
from being earth chattering and from now on I will be using
milk pores. Spring application are a WASTE of money and one
more bad thing to the environment. Nematodes are a good alternative
and can be found at stores like Home depot. Attached is an article
about grubs and lawn applications. Don't rush the grub control ! Be careful about succumbing to manufacturers advertising, especially when it comes to grub control. Springtime brings with it a flurry of activity at lawn and garden retail outlets where 'well intentioned' homeowners are willing to buy whatever it takes to make sure the lawn looks good for the summer. Fertilizers, hoses, pesticides, are all flying out the doors. Granted, there is a lot of peer pressure as well. Ever get the feeling that your neighbors, out there hustling about on their own lawns doing this or that, are also secretly looking over the fence checking up on what you are doing? Unfortunately, by the middle of the season, most of those same neighbors are so tired of mowing the lawn that they really couldn't care less. They are too busy looking for a great deal on a snow-blower. The reality is that grub control applications should be made in the summer time. Grubs damage lawns beginning in early August in Indiana NOT during the spring time. It follows that if damage does not begin until August, that should be the target time period for controls. And it is! What about the manufacturers claims of 'season long control'?
Some products do last a long time in the soil, however, over
time they do break down. That is how they were designed and
it is what we want them to do. Applying control products in
early spring, even though the damaging grubs do not hatch from
the eggs until late July or early August simply affords more
time for the products to break down and become ineffective.
It makes more sense t o wait until July and apply them then.
That way they will be fresh and will be much more effective
in preventing grub damage. So, if you had grub damage last year,
and want to do something now, do this. Get up from your chair,
and mark your calendars now for a July or early August application.
This will give you more bang for your buck! And while you are
up, grab your golf clubs, and hit the course for a round. As
you drive past your neighbors out there applying grub control,
no obscene gestures please. Just smile pleasantly at them. Rest
assured that we will remind you again when it is time for grub
control. ----- Original Message ----- ... Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 07:32:07 -0700 (PDT) Hi all. Today I went to check my trail at a local golf course, where on June 13th I had 4 BB eggs in a box bordering an orchard, and 4 BB's fledged probably during that prior week in a different location. When I got there, the owner told me they had found 1 dead female BB under a tree, and 3 dead BB's together under a different tree - one adult male and 2 juveniles. They had put these 3 in the freezer for me to see, and there was no visible signs of trauma on them. When I checked my trail, I found the 4 eggs gone, a new layer of BB nest started on top of the empty BB nest, and the farmer who owns the orchard was spraying it (this golf course has bits of orchard, unsprayed, all through it, and I hadn't known that this chunk of orchard was sprayed until today). He was going around under all the rows of trees with his tractor, spraying the ground, and coming perilously close to the birdboxes. I saw a female BB fly into the orchard while this was going on, and found that she had started a nest in another box which had last year fledged BB's. Its a popular spot near this orchard. However, because these nests were just being started, and because I was now confronted with this actual spraying, I decided to remove these boxes, and force the BB's into the golf course interior more, where there are lots of empty boxes now. I did so with some uncertainty, because I saw Mr. Blue fluttering over the now empty post, looking for his home. But I reasoned that they probably would die from ingesting poison if they nest close to a sprayed orchard. Then I was told by one of the GC staff that the spraying was roundup for the weeds, and probably wouldn't be done again. Well, I don't know how often apples get sprayed, I would assume more insecticides later. Anyway, I figure the only reason that an adult BB and 2 young would be dead under a tree would be that they were feeding on poisoned insects? Anyway, sorry for the long story, but I am hoping I made a sensible choice - it seemed so at the time, and these boxes will now be permanently relocated to better spots within the golf course where no spraying is done, and hopefully these couples will find a new home. Thanks for any feedback anyone can give. Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 23:19:39 -0700 Linda Violett - Yorba Linda, Calif. Yes, Mary, I believe trying to relocate nesting birds from an area sprayed with pesticides/herbicides to vacant boxes in a cleaner environment was a prudent decision on your part. Last year I lost a Bluebird clutch on a golf course trail next to a homeowner with a vegetable garden. At the time, pesticides were suspected but I did not remove the box. This year, another clutch of Bluebirds was found dead at the
same site--just like last year as tomatoes were ripening. Pesticides
are most likely the cause and the box has been removed. Mary Wilson wrote: When I got there, the owner told me they had found 1 dead female BB ... To: Bluebird-L"at"Cornell.edu Two years ago I rehabilitated and fostered out a nest of four EABL chicks that the parents were killed by pesticides sprayed on a cherry tree. Kathy Bennett On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 23:19:39 -0700 Linda Violett lviolett"at"earthlink.net ... Problems with insecticides on a bluebird trail (Part 5) |
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