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Bluebird Evolution and History (Part 1)Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:01:35 -0700 Gary: Your question is a good one, but I would be more interested in the population of Bluebirds at the time of Weaver Finch (HOSP)introduction in the mid 19th century. Nicholas ------------------------------------------------ I posed a question over a year ago and received very little response. How do bluebird populations today compare with bluebird populations in Pre-Columbian times? I believe that the bluebird populations may be higher today than in 1492. Consider that the bluebird prefers open country, but, the eastern United States was almost entirely forested in 1492. We may never know the answer to this question because bluebirds, like its cousin the American Robin may have adapted from a bird that primarily occupied forest to one that primarily occupies open spaces in the summer. I am thankful that bluebirds are as plentiful as they are but many other smaller birds are also threatened. It seems obvious the reason these other birds are ignored is that they just aren't as pretty as the bluebird. Without a doubt, if the bluebird was a mottled brown color like dozens of species that are just as important, the bluebird would lose most of its fan support and this list would not exist. We must offer nesting to bluebirds judiciously and under observation and the same is true of offering white millet, all other types of seeds and foods. And, just because the habitat provided by dense plant growth offers cover for house sparrows doesn't mean we should eliminate that type of habitat. Gary Springer Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 14:29:55 -0700 Hi Nick and all, I know the house sparrow has had an impact on bluebird populations. But, please note that the house sparrow's impact on bluebird populations is primarily restricted to those areas near man's occupation where the house sparrow makes its home. Also note that the decimation of bluebird populations extended to all areas, not just where the House Sparrow flourished. I will always believe that the old time farmers' memory is correct when they claim that not only did the bluebirds disappear when they began liberally spraying DDT on all crops and orchards, in their homes, on cats, dogs, even dunking their own bodies in DDT and using fire equipment to spray down the streets in towns and cities,and everywhere else, but that the house sparrow populations were decimated at the same time. It is so much more politically correct to say that house sparrows wiped out the bluebirds instead of admitting that we killed the bluebirds with DDT. Pesticide experts are quick to suggest that DDT does not harm bluebirds. But, in my opinion, because what we know about these pesticides has been given to us by the strongly biased pesticide industry, I am very skeptical. Further, you must agree that DDT was very effective at destroying insects. It was the best thing ever created for this purpose up to that time, and, there was a large scale war waged to rid the world of insects. DDT was used so extensively and widely that after a couple years many farmers and especially peach orchard owners didn't have to spray because the insects had been almost totally wiped out. So tell me, what did the bluebirds feed their young after all the insects were dead and gone, or worse, covered with DDT and dying? Create a new and very effective insecticide or genetic insect control, run all sorts of tests to make sure it is absolutely safe to warm blooded animals including bluebirds, BUT, if it is used as widely as DDT, when all the insects die, there will be no more bluebirds, and the insecticide will be the cause, not house sparrows. So, even if pesticide manufacturers are telling the truth when they say DDT is harmless to bluebirds, DDT and excessive wide spread use of any pesticide disrupts the bluebirds food supply and thus reduces bluebird populations. We can't possibly use pesticides to destroy all the insects to maximize crop yields for a burgeoning worldwide population, make our insect phobic society happy with widespread use of home, garden and lawn applications of insecticides and expect a healthy population of bluebirds. That is like wanting your cake and eating it too. Gary Springer ----- Original Message ----- From: Nicholas A. Zbiciak nzbiciak"at"gfn.org Gary: Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 13:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Gary, I feed the safflower seed, it is in a hull and the main bird at my feeder is the chickadee and many more. I can't imagine that these birds beaks are smaller than the chickadees ... I mean the chickadee hardly even has a beak yet they do fine with hulls on the safflower seed. When I didn't know better I fed the white millet and the house sparrow dominated the feeders with little or no room for anything except maybe a bigger bird. My mother in law feeds millet and I only see house sparrows at her feeder...ton of them. Kerry in Okla. --- "Real Bird Homes.Com" springer"at"alltel.net wrote: Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 13:14:06 -0700 Hi Gary and All: I'm no expert on conditions in the East, but I have to disagree with Gary on the importance of DDT on bird populations in the West. The best natural habitat for the Western Bluebird in my neck of the woods is open Oak-Woodland--Savannah much of which has been grazed extensively since the Spaniards began colonization in the late 1700s. The mission period began at San Diego in 1769 and continued until 1823. Grazing undoubtedly improved conditions for the bluebirds by keeping the grass short making foraging for insects easier. The oaks provided plenty of cavities, since oaks typically host a lot of rot and the Acorn Woodpecker is an excellent cavity builder. Later, extensive agriculture led to clearing of oaks in the San Joaquin-Sacramento Valley (the Central Valley of California). The loss of cavities just about wiped out the bluebird, the Oak Titmouse, and others by 1950. The foothills, on the other hand, were held by cattle ranchers. The most common attraction for House Sparrows, after cities and towns, were (and are) barns, stables, grain storage sheds, and other areas where feed is spilled. Sparrows will usurp suitable cavities around these areas up to a mile or so (here). No DDT was used except for backyard gardens in this area. In the valley, there was plenty but the cavity-nester were already gone because the cavities were gone. The second wave of population reductions is the urban sprawl with large housing developments and industrial parks moving into the foothills. Planning Commissions are now trying to save the oaks but not entirely. Many housing developments are in the oaks but guess what? All the dead limbs are cut out of the trees to make them safe. The oaks are also host to the oak moth whose little caterpillar is a "inch-worm" or "measuring worm." They will not confine their feeding to oaks, so many of the affluent escapees from the cities have their trees sprayed annually. No DDT here. Sevin is the insecticide of choice. It probably doesn't kill the birds but it leaves the Oak Titmouse, especially, pretty hungry even if we've provided a nestbox in lieu of the potential "widow-makers" removed from the trees. The bright spot in all this is the fact that in California, our huge water projects have taken water from the east side of the Sierra Nevada and piped it to Southern California and also have moved water from the Feather River in the North as far south as Riverside County. In the Greater Los Angeles basin, water has converted the native Desert Scrub habitat into concrete interspersed with lovely green parks, golf courses, cemetaries, and nicely landscaped industrial parks. A very active nestbox program, instituted by a couple of NABS members (notably Dick Purvis) has now spread within Orange, Riverside, Los Angeles, and San Bernardino Counties. Remnant bluebird populations have spread from the surrounding foothills of the Sierra Madre and Santa Ana Mountains into these areas that were never before Western Bluebird habitat. Sacramento Valley which was nearly devoid of bluebirds now has growing populations around Roseville in Placer County where Cal Bluebird Recovery Program birders have trails. Dee Warenycia has trails at the Hewlett-Packard plant as well as at Golf Courses in the area. And Kevin Putman, with trails in Marysville and Yuba City is bringing up populations in backyards, old cemeteries, and golf courses. House Sparrows are still a problem in these locations. At least in this part of the world, you can't blame DDT for population declines in the cavity-nesting populations. It's lack of cavities, House Sparrows, and Starlings. Hatch Graham "Real Bird Homes.Com" wrote: Hi Nick and all, Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 06:47:57 -0500 What a treasure of a letter Keith. I hope you put this information into a book or several newsletters. Is there more to the story about your reason for doing the cleanup work or did you get sick from the task or did your truck haul all this in one trip? thanks for the story -----Original Message----- From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:kridler"at"1starnet.com] Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas Since House Sparrows and Starlings evolved with manmade structures which sometimes provide the same cavity for hundreds of years the Starling has adapted by cleaning out last years nest or even brand new nests of other birds to create a nesting site for it's young. The House Sparrow often will nest three times in the same box in the same year and each set of eggs are sometimes laid on the bare bottom of the nestbox floor as they try to keep their eggs and young as far as possible from the entrance hole. The smaller the nestbox the less material under the eggs for most House Sparrow nests. In areas with fierce competition with the Starling, House Sparrows will choose deeper boxes, those with smaller entrance holes and those with the thicker entrance holes as those birds that choose shallow boxes tend to not pass on their genes as Starlings and predators remove this gene pool. This year for example an area where no House Sparrows were allowed to use nestboxes. The House Sparrows simply reverted to "Weaver Finches" and they nested in trees like their ancient ancestors all did. Bluebirds on the other hand evolved with the help of woodpeckers whose rotted tree limb cavities seldom last more than a few years. Bluebirds will fill up a cavity to the entrance hole and then move on to another cavity. The largest Starling/House Sparrow nest I have encounters was over 48" tall and located in an attic of a house under an eave vent. It was an active nest with 5 Starling eggs in it when I cleaned it out. It took 10 thirty gallon trash bags stuffed with grass and trash to remove it. The lady said that "birds" had been nesting in her attic since 1952 when the house was built. The nest was 30 years old and contained dozens of old House Sparrow eggs and Starling eggs at all levels! KK Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 07:17:34 -0500 Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas In regards to removing the House Sparrow nest/Starling nest we were called to do repairs on the house. A minor roof leak was turning this huge nest into a compost pile in her attic. The Starlings actually laid eggs at the very top of this pile which resembled a pyramid. The birds had two pyramid type nests, one at each end of the house with the one on the west side much larger. The Starlings and House Sparrows were entering through the gable eave vents which had no wire to keep them out. After cleaning the attic out, in one trip, we installed 1/2" hardware cloth to cover the vents from the inside preventing the birds from nesting in this house. This really was a horrible smelling pile of old nests once it had gotten wet! Compost piles will hit about 140*F if they are worked right and this one was in the low 100*F range on a cool spring day. KK Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 12:00:01 -0500 My understanding of eastern bluebird preferred habitat when they were "discovered" by Europeans coming to this continent was that they preferred the edges of clearings rather than the deep woods, much as they do today. Given the choice, they still like having some trees nearby, but they need open spaces to hunt for insects. Animals evolve or their populations expand to fill niches, and since we have expanded the niche by having more "clearings" today, I , too, suspect we actually have MORE bluebirds than in 1492. Woodland birds may be more threatened than the bluebird, since we keep removing their habitat. Kate Oschwald Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 13:37:05 -0500 Dear Gary and List, Although I have not read material which could place population numbers within the time frame of our ancestors arriving on this continent, it would appear logical that the family Sialia has indeed benefited from our accession of this once great and marvelous land. This thought is based upon extrapolating the preferred habitat of members of Sialia, and applying it to the manner in which we have, and continue to deforest and denude this continent, which offers the species much improved habitat........at the devastating expense to all others. It is also my personal opinion that the detrimental impact upon all denizens of forested land have been horrifically interrupted. Many such populations of creatures that now sit ever so precariously on the abyss of disappearance, will, in sad fact, eventually be lost forever. As each anchor or support of the extremely frail web of existence is snipped, the weigh of the system becomes ever more unbearable upon the remaining strands of support. At night, when I gaze up into the glory of the Milky Way galaxy, I cannot help but wonder if we are not following a rule of interplanetary evolution. Perhaps, just perhaps, this is why life is so exceedingly precious and rare? Fread J. Loane Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:32:51 -0700 Hi all, On the Bluebird-L list I read about the history of providing nest boxes for bluebirds on two or three occasions. Based on these writings I was quite sure that the bluebird movement and bluebird trails, a term we use loosely to describe anywhere from between several boxes to hundreds of boxes, was something started in the late twenties or early thirties. But, reading about the bluebird in the 1919 Standard Dictionary of Facts combined with knowledge of the American Indians hanging gourds for purple martin housing now leads me to believe that the practice of offering nesting for bluebirds originated well in advance of the arrival of the first European settlers on the North American Continent, and that it was a very common practice throughout American history. In 1919 offering nest boxes for bluebirds was common enough that in the aforementioned text, consisting of only 4 sentences about bluebirds, it is written: "It (the bluebird) makes its nest in the hole of a tree or in the box that is so commonly provided for its use by the friendly farmer." I'm not sure of the most accepted percentage of the population of the US that was involved with farming at that time. but, I believe it well exceeds 40 percent. I won't hazard a guess as to what numbers the writer in 1919 meant by "commonly provided"(nest boxes). We may not be able to agree to the cause of the decline, but the decline in not only the East, but also the West did occur during the 8 year span beginning in 1942 when DDT was first used in the United States and applied by nearly every imaginable means from spraying from planes to fire hoses to submerging people into in order to kill all sorts of insects from mosquitoes in swamps to insects that were or might be in the farmers crops to body lice and bed bugs as if it were as safe as baby powder. And, house sparrows had a foothold long before the 40's And, the increase of the bluebirds population in the East and West not only coincides with the work of the people given most credit for their recovery, but, it also coincides with the cleaning up or our streams where bass and trout recovered and the clearing of the dark skies which resulted in a natural erosion of the black suit off of the buildings in the rust belt, and, the creation of the EPA and stringent laws passed on pesticide use and industrial waste that took millins of dollars off the bottom line of American industry, and ultimately paid by the consumer, as everything is, because the buck always flows up and the cost always flows down, regardless if the cost is higher taxes or the price we pay for air and water quality. Again, I am not saying that house sparrows aren't a threat to bluebirds when people populate an area, that some of the points that Hatch brought up aren't valid, or that credit isn't due to those that work hard at putting up nest boxes, but, I think the timing of the decline of bluebirds much more closely parallels the use of DDT than the spread of house sparrows which was decades earlier, and, the timing of their recovery much more closely parallels controls on pesticide use and industrial waste. Coincidence or not, we have to decide for ourselves. Gary Springer Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:50:15 -0700 Hi again, In further reading in the 1919 Standard Dictionary of facts there are also 6 sentences under the heading "Sparrows". Despite the fact that there are dozens of native species the author used two of these 6 sentences discussing the house sparrow. As early as 1919, or 23 years before the beginning of the decline of the bluebird, it was written: "The House or English Sparrow is perhaps the best known species. It inhabits the British islands and other parts of Europe, from which it has been introduced into America, where it is now regarded as a pest. Their amazing fecundity(help me out Wendell), their strong attachment to their young, their familiarity, not to say impudence, and their voracity are familiar to ALL." Indeed, for at least 20 years the bluebird had no difficulty coping with house sparrows. What changed in 1942? Gary Springer Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:08:15 -0700 Gary: Interesting. Help me out--what source states the Bluebird decline began in 1942? Nicholas Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:20:34 -0700 Hi Kerry, The Chickadee is not a finch or sparrow and its tastes and method of opening seeds is quite different. In addition to your experiences with the Chickadee, it can also open even small acorns by pecking like a woodpecker and it also enjoys peanut butter as well as hulled sunflower seeds and, I'm sure, safflower. I don't have any experience with safflower but I have spent dozens of hours watching within a couple feet, several species of small sparrows eating seeds, and, I rehabbed an Indigo Bunting, a small finch, and I would have loved to vary its diet but it completely ignored sunflower bits and hole sunflower seeds. These small birds don't peck like woodpeckers and Chickadees and they don't excavate cavities like Chickadees do. These smaller finches and sparrows open the seeds by putting pressure on the seed and working the lower and upper bill sideways until the seed splits. I have seen them try to open sunflower seeds without success, but in my experience, they never hunt out pieces of hulled seeds or take other 'processed foods' like even the Carolina wren, another bird normally incapable of opening sunflower seeds does. The white throats, fox, and song sparrows, and several other sparrows can open sunflower seeds but these are all larger than 5 and a half inches. While the American Gold finch is small, it does have the strength to open the black oil sunflower seed. I hope you can see that if we govern our actions only by what the bluebird and house sparrow needs, we ignore many species. Gary Springer Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:50:15 -0700 Hi again, In further reading in the 1919 Standard Dictionary of facts there are also 6 sentences under the heading "Sparrows". Despite the fact that there are dozens of native species the author used two of these 6 sentences discussing the house sparrow. As early as 1919, or 23 years before the beginning of the decline of the bluebird, it was written: "The House or English Sparrow is perhaps the best known species. It inhabits the British islands and other parts of Europe, from which it has been introduced into America, where it is now regarded as a pest. Their amazing fecundity(help me out Wendell), their strong attachment to their young, their familiarity, not to say impudence, and their voracity are familiar to ALL." Indeed, for at least 20 years the bluebird had no difficulty coping with house sparrows. What changed in 1942? Gary Springer Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:08:15 -0700 Gary: Interesting. Help me out--what source states the Bluebird decline began in 1942? Nicholas Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:52:09 -0700 Hi Nick, Yes, it is very interesting. And, not forgotten by some of our older farmers that still remember. Here in Georgia they watched the populations of bluebirds disappear from their nest boxes right along with the decline of house sparrows in their farm yards, out buildings and lofts when the in thing became to douse the fields and crops with DDT. And, all farmers didn't start using DDT in exactly 1942 but its use increased from that point until bluebirds were scarce. Do you have any source that says the decline didn't occur beginning in the early 40's until their near extinction by about 1950? Or, perhaps you have a rare source that indicates that the bluebird populations began dropping at the turn of the century when it would have, had the house sparrow been the primary culprit in its demise. As I said, we all have to draw our own conclusions. One thing is for certain, the more land we convert from good house sparrow-free excellent bluebird habitat to perfect house sparrow habitat, the bigger the house sparrow problem will be. But it is important that we learn from our mistakes instead of tossing blame on a creature WE took to this continent so we can avoid costly errors in the future. Fortunately, it appears the people running this country, and I don't mean the politicians, understand that environmental issues are absolutely the most important issues we face if we are to continue to live on this planet. Otherwise, big money would always win out against environmental issues. But we are seeing more and more that environmental issues are taking more of a front seat these days. Thank goodness. Gary Springer Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 03:06:30 -0700 Please put a period after farmers and delete the words "that still remember" at the end of sentence two of my last post. Sounds like something that might have been said by a man named Dan Quail. Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 07:22:58 -0500 Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas This is a really a history lesson possibly showing relation to habitat and other factors which have helped and hurt the bluebird population. 1492 the "New World" discovered with about 1 million people most of them nomads living in North America. These were hunter/gatherer's with few farmers. 1600's was bringing increased trade between Europe and the New World with small pox and other disease's actually lowering the population along with importation of weapons to increase warring capabilities between tribes. 17001750 Hey day of British, French and Spanish using native tribes to fight their main battles in America to expand their land "holdings". Huge increase in trade in timber (for ships) potash (ashes from burned trees) and non perishable products like furs, tobacco and dried meats & nuts. 17501800 Huge population explosion of farmers needing land (nearly everyone raised their own crops). Collapse of the furring empires due to over trapping and huge price increases. Virtual extermination of beavers who probably created more habitat for bluebirds than any other force either natural or manmade with their cutting of timber and drowning trees in their temporary lakes and pools. 18001850 Massive settlings of the land with farmers and loggers following on the heels of railroads, rivers and barge traffic. Still mostly subsistent farmers but now allowing for selling excess produce for a profit. Most still used wood for cooking and whale oil for lanterns. 18501880 With railroads and steel production in the east and the industrial revolution running amuck in the world a power drive train transfer system was invented. The flat leather belt was used to transfer power from steam engines to anything needing turned. Buffalo hides were converted to the best and longest lasting leather drive belt in the world. The need for these belts drove the buffalo to the edge of extinction. Many people now heat with coal in cities. First refined oil is being used. House Sparrow is imported! Railroads now could move perishable products from anywhere to distant markets. Cattle from Texas to Chicago to butcher, pack in ice (cut and stored in pits during winter months from the great lakes & used all summer) and shipped to all parts of the northeast. 18801920 Nearly ALL of the Eastern states had been clear cut during this time all the way to East Texas. A hand full of buffalo were still found on three western ranches. Market hunting of all birds had driven Passenger Pigeons to near extinction along with many other declines of species. Domestic animals have replaced wild game as main courses of meat. Oil has replaced rendered whale and cattle fat for lighting. Coal is still most popular form of heating for homes and factory boilers. Starling is imported! 19201940 Devastation of economies and infrastructure in Europe leads to huge demand for farm products and all goods from the "New World". Unprecedented conversion of land to feed the world. Roaring 20's fashion's dictated feathers for human adornment. This leading to hunting of non edible birds like heron's and egret's for their long flowing feathers. First real limits on market hunting of birds. Fur industry thrives again. Ohio and Louisiana lead the nation in production of animal skins. Huge shift to fuel oil for home heating and boilers as it is cheaper and more efficient. Clean burning is NOT an issue! Passenger pigeon, Carolina parakeet and Ivory Billed woodpecker disappear along with many species just barely hanging on in neglected niches. Most people still shooting "chicken" hawks on sight and our federal government paying bounties for killing of wolves, coyotes and Bald and Golden Eagles. 19401955 Practically world wide destruction forces the most massive agricultural use of land in countries not affected directly by the war. DDT for pest control, Sulfa drugs to combat infection for people and livestock. Massive oil fields discovered in Texas, Venezuela, middle east countries provide cheap fuel and old war planes converted to freight haulers allow fresh cut flowers to be flown from Europe to America along with the most perishable products. High pressure natural gas is just being tapped and piped instead of allowing it to be burned or simply released at the well head. Butane & propane is being saved at refineries and "bottled". Refrigeration is perfected breaking the north's monopoly of meat packing with cheap lake ice! Dutch Elm disease devastates our elm and chestnut trees. Fire ants are imported into the southern states. Steel production explodes and quality timber is in short supply for housing. Massive shift from farm to city for now pesticides can limit insects and they do not have to be hand picked off of plants to protect the crop and a cheap tractor, Ford's 8-N and 9-N and John Deere Farmall's have hit the market allowing a person to plow 40 acres a day!!!! Electricity is being brought to outlying farms! Asphalt shingles replacing wood, slate and clay tile roofs! Oil rigs are converted to deep drilling rigs for fresh water opening up farming in vast areas of western states where ever electricity is available. (San Antonio Texas is the largest city in the world relying 100% on only well water!) 1955 You pretty well get the picture from here on. Electricity use is up 42 percent from 1982 along with demands for natural gas and oil use. If you look at the population growth of people it pretty well coincides with the decline in habitat worldwide. There are 400 people per square mile living in West Germany for example. I have only touched on a few issues but there are thousands of plants, animals, insects and diseases that easy transportation have spread worldwide making them pests or helping to push other species to extinction. Our beloved bluebird is just one of many species that we need to be watching & helping to make sure our grand children can be thrilled with it's beauty and song. I believe that the changes in all manner of living from 1940-1955 laid the ground work for the massive population explosion in humans. Our thirst for goods and continual improvement in all fields only helps to push the human population to greater numbers. Every person is a consumer of the earth's limited resources. A simple fact few can really grasp. KK Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:25:34 -0700 I researched the DDT issue some time back. And without going into all of the gory details, it's not quite that "knee-jerk" simple (i.e. Use DDT, lose a bird). As it turns out, despite popular widespread claims to the contrary, DDT is NOT toxic to birds and other higher life forms. By that I mean, toxic = eat this and die! What it does is it interferes in the mitosis of shell calcification. And it takes a very concentrated amount of that product applied over a long period of time to do that. That's why it only seems to effect those birds at the pinnacle of the food chain. Which is one of the causes of our dramatically depressed raptor populations in the '70's. The big raptors usually feed upon other critters, that fed upon other critters, and so on... NO! I am NOT saying, bring back DDT. It certainly should be relegated to the dust bin of history. But let's not jump on the "it's all the DDT's fault" bandwagon without a little more thought. There are lots of things that effect the BB (and other birds) populations. Not all of them come conveniently numbered with dates and times attached. So it's rather comfortable and satisfying to point fingers at "a thing" and wash our hands of further responsibility. Regretfully, that's almost never the case. As Gary pointed out, our converting of open space BB habitats to other (non-BB) uses, is _certainly_ a contributing cause--in a number of ways (habitat loss, better conditions for competitors, etc...). In fact, it's probably a huge contributing cause. But that too is not the only cause for BB population fluctuations. It's always simple to point ones fingers at a "thing" or "event" singled out for vilification, but that doesn't necessarily factually indict that "thing" or "event" as the culprit. We've got to both keep out eyes open, and continue to search for and ameliorate those things under our control to change. Otherwise we'll fall into the, "The sky is falling!" hysteria we hear as soon as we learn of anything that doesn't feed our conviction of invulnerability. There's little I find as amusing as a scalded liberal reading his thermometer on a hot day, and then running around shrieking "It's global warming! It's here! We need a program to prevent it! Hep me! Hep me!..." (:-). Things come, and things go. All things in nature happen in cycles. Sometimes we're aware of them, sometimes we're not. What we have to do is keep our eyes on the long goal... Later all, Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 09:40:30 -0800 Lonn in Roseburg, Oregon I am a wonderer of all cavity loss so here's another cavity loss history. When the fence posts were replaced from wood to metal there is the loss of cavity. Bluebird Evolution and History (Part 2) |
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