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Chickadees (Part 2)Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:41:07 EST Hi Folks, I am seeking answers that could be applied to a one acre yard setting although information applicable to a different setting could be helpful to all of us. The Eastern Bluebird is territorial during the nesting season and the Carolina Chickadee is lower on the pecking order than the Bluebird. My experience has been that the Bluebird will evict or prevent Chickadees from building a nest in a Bluebird pair's territory while the Bluebirds are undecided on which one of several boxes that they could build the Bluebird nest. By the time the Bluebird gets down to the business of nesting the Chickadees are either no longer in the pair's territory or I am not aware of their presence. All of the boxes in the above situation have had entrances that Bluebirds could pass through. Now, is it reasonable to expect that Chickadees could nest successfully in a box having a 1 1/8 inch entrance if that box and Bluebird boxes were made available at the same time? If so, how close can the Chickadee box be from the nearest Bluebird box if the boxes are within sight of each other? What about if there is not a direct line of sight between boxes? Any and all information about having these birds nest in close proximity is appreciated. Tom in NW Florida Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:10:35 -0600 How about sending it to the whole group? We have Black-capped Chickadees that I would like to see nesting in one of my nestboxes, too. Last year the EABLs removed the moss from the nestbox the Chickadees had chosen. The Chickadees later brought babies to the yard, so they did fine in their nesting. But I want them to choose a nestbox, too! Molly Jo Miller Hi...If anyone answers Tom Gary's questions below about ... Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 18:51:20 -0500 Kevin Bloom To whom it concerns, So here is what I found to be true around here. The Black-capped chickadee pair layed 6 eggs and the Eastern Bluebirds 4. Unless I missed a few battles, the bluebirds didn't bother the chickadees except for a few quarrelings and the bluebirds sitting on top of the CHICKADEE'S HOME! Otherwise no damage done. The Black-caps fledged 2/6 and the bluebirds 4/4. If your wondering why 2/6 for the BCCH, it was because of wet nest. Three were found dead on the morning of 4/14 and the other one died during the day even though a nest change was made. LET ME REMIND YOU THAT THE CHICKADEES DID GET A PRETTY GOOD HEADSTART AHEAD OF THE EABL, SO I AM NOT SURE THAT IF IT WAS THE BLUEBIRDS THAT MADE THE FIRST MOVE, THAT THEY WOULD HAVE TOLERATED THE CHICKADEES FROM BEING NEIGHBORS. AFTER ALL, WHEN THE BLUEBIRDS BEGAN TO BUILD THEIR NEST, THE BCCH YOUNG WERE ALREADY HATCHED. I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN ANYONE THAT HAS HAD IT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 19:52:06 -0600 Steve Garr Tom and everyone, In my experience the Eastern Bluebird is not territorial with the Carolina Chickadee. I manage trails in different locations in Middle Tenn. but my most experience with EABL and CACH is my backyard. In an area less than 1 1/2 acres I have 9 nest boxes. I take pairing boxes to the next dimension. I have had them both nest within 25 feet of each other, as well as Titmice and Carolina Wrens all nesting in the same yard at the same time. I am testing this on another trail this year in downtown Nashville TN. where during the first nesting last year I had more CACH than EABL. This section of the trail we refer to as Chickadee lane. After the CACH finished nesting last year the EABL used the boxes. Pairing boxes for CACH and EABL gives us a chance to help and enjoy more of our native cavity nesting birds. One thing I do on my home trail is install a predator guard with a 1 1/8" opening to decrease the competition after the CACH chooses a nestbox. I hope your results are as good as mine. Steve Garr .... Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 08:44:47 -0500 Lake Ontario snowbelt north of Syracuse, NY Hi all, There has been much interest lately in EABL-chickadee competition. I live on a 3/4 acre suburban yard. Here, black capped chicadees usually begin nest building before bluebirds, and are often evicted by them. My solution, which has worked for 9 years now, was to put up hanging boxes with 1-1/8 entrance hole just for chickadees. Adding a hole restrictor on a normal box after chickadee nestbuilding started did *not* work for me. The chickadees here are not as tolerant of human intervention as most bluebirds, and twice deserted their partially constructed nest as soon as I put up the restrictor piece. Once eggs are laid, I am able to monitor with no problem, but in the early stages, chickadees resented my interference even though it was done quickly. Most years I have both species nesting within plain view of one another, and have seen little problem except when the bluebird decides that his favorite perch is the chickadee box, which annoys the chickadees but does not drive them away. Same goes for tree swallows - after a bit of unsuccessful dive-bombing, TRES learn to accept the EABL sometimes sitting on *their* box. Once the females are on eggs, TRES and EABL males often perch on guard together on my TV antenna, studiously ignoring each other. We don't have many bluebirds here, and I have never had 2 pairs at once in my yard, so don't know how they work it out between themselves. Hanging boxes are an easy way to help chickadees, as they can be smaller, lighter in weight, and hung from poles or small trees. I put mine on shepherd's crook ornamental poles meant for hanging plants, right in the middle of open flower beds and my garden. Although many of my books say that only house wrens will accept a hanging box, that has not been true here. If you try this, be sure not to locate the smaller boxes near woods or brush, as wrens will take over. My hanging box usually chosen by chickadees is only 10 feet from the garage and driveway, so proximity to humans does not appear to be a factor. Hope this helps. Dot Now, is it reasonable to expect that Chickadees could nest successfully in a box having a 1 1/8 inch entrance if that box and Bluebird boxes were made available at the same time? If so, how close can the Chickadee box be from the nearest Bluebird box if the boxes are within sight of each other? Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 15:49:23 -0500 (EST) Hi all, There has been some discussion about Chickadees nesting near Bluebirds. My experience with them in Ohio seems to indicate that location of nest boxes mean more than how far apart they are. Being near wooded areas seems to favor Chickadees in selecting a box. I had good success with nest boxes hanging from a tree branch,6 to 7 feet from the ground. In the early70,s I hung out several House wren boxes with 1" entrance holes. I actually found some of these with green moss in them at the end of the season. Also had regular size bluebird boxes for hanging from branches with 1-1/2" entrances. Both Chickadees and Nuthatch used these several years. The Bluebirds didn't bother these much unless House wrens came to them. Then Bluebirds would try to keep them away. There was always an abundant number of boxes in these areas so there were always empty boxes around to be used. These birds tolerated each other very well when there was ample nesting. The sure spoiler was any time a rogue House sparrow came into the picture. Once a Chickadee seen a sparrow enter their box they abandoned it instantly. Bluebirds were their best defence against sparrows because if one neared the area bluebirds were very aware and chased after them immediately. I could always tell if sparrows were near from the bluebirds actions. They must fear them more than most of us. Don't make nest boxes scarce for the birds. They will sort out the distances between nests. Come on spring time, Joe Charter member NABS, Charter member OBS, Life member OBS Joe Huber http://community.webtv.net/hubertrap/HOUSESPARROWCONTROL http://community.webtv.net/hubertrap/RoostingBluebirds Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 08:05:11 -0600 Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas In the Berlet film on bluebirds done in the mid 1980's I believe they showed a naturally standing dead tree with multiple cavities in it somewhere in the western states, possibly Canada. Within about a 5 foot section of log there were mountain bluebirds, chickadees and tree swallows all sharing the same side of the tree trunk and feeding young at the same time. They mentioned something about cavity shortages will force birds to nest close together. Along my trail years ago I noticed eastern bluebirds clinging to a railroad tie corner post and found a rotted cavity about 36" off the ground. The entrance was a wide vertical split leading to a 3" diameter and shallow "cavity". I placed a box above this cavity and the next trip when I drove up I caught a glimpse of a Carolina Chickadee flying out and away from the nestbox area. I opened the box and had a bluebird nest with eggs and under the box in the railroad tie there was a chickadee nest with eggs. Both fledged within about 18" of each other. Empty/clean nest: Good answers all on this topic! One other thing though is that when only one young bird survives and they feed it a solid diet of low moisture insects the nest can be perfectly clean and still retain a normal "cup" since the young bird has plenty of room in the nest cup and does not need to spread out like 4 or 5 young in a box and flatten the entire nest area. The parents are not rushed to find insects and can leisurely feed and clean up after one youngster. Even so a successful nesting will have some of the "dander" that is the break down of the sheath covering the pin feathers have as they develop. Even one young bird will leave some of these buried in the nesting material. Dead western bluebird in Linda's nestbox: When several bluebirds roost in a nestbox they can cover the entire bottom of the box. When you open one of these boxes at night very often the birds are packed tightly and some will be sitting in the corner with their heads pointed straight up possibly to be able to escape quicker or simply to breathe easier or maybe it is more comfortable. If one of these birds dies in this position it will stiffen over night in what looks like an "unnatural" sitting position but remember the Michael Smith photo of roosting bluebirds had 13 adults in a 4" diameter cavity and only 9 can be counted easily! KK Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:42:18 -0800 (PST) Greetings....To people interested in EABL & C. Chickadee interaction while nesting...This is what I'm observing at the 3 Bluebird nestboxes located at front of my house, side of my house, & back of my house. If you're standing at any of these locations, you can't see either of the other two. (But for birds high in the trees, they could if they wanted to.) A few weeks ago, the Chickadees started a nest in front box, but the EABL kicked them out & have been occasionally removing the moss. A few days ago, the Chickadees(not sure they were the same ones) started building a nest in the side box. At first the EABL were harrassing & chasing the Chickadees away from side box & occasionally removing a little moss. But Chickadees have been managing to continue building. Whenever the EABL would see the Chickadees on top or hanging onto the opening, the EABL would chase the Chickadees away. But here is the interesting thing I observed..This is how the Chickadee manage to build his nest. He would stay INSIDE. Then the EABL were afraid to go inside & would lose interest & fly away. I think this strategy by the Chickadee is brilliant. Of course, I originally put up the 3 boxes for the Bluebirds, primarily. There's another smaller opening nestbox high on a tree for either the Chickadee, Titmouse, or Nuthatch. Just yesterday I looked into side box. Chickadee nest was almost finished. But I noticed 1 long pine straw. No mystery who put that in...I'm interested in hearing any other interesting observations..Thanks...Horace in NC. ===== Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:41:14 -0800 (PST) Hi..This msg is to people who have had Chickadees nesting in nestboxes. Today
I checked 2 or 3 boxes that have a Chickadee nest built or almost built. This
was done just before dark. I gave the little bird ample time to fly out by
tapping on the box & whistling. It didn't fly out. But when ===== Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:22:47 -0500 I had one box last year with Black-Cap Chickadee and he or she would make a nest in the box. No eggs in the box and he or she used it every night all year. Maynard Sumner Flint, Michigan -----Original Message----- Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:27:53 EDT I am real curious why these Chickadees were just sitting on the nest just before dark? Was she going to lay an egg? Do Chickadees nest & lay their eggs just like the Bluebird...1 a day in the morning? I had the chance to check a Chickadee nest right near the house one year, thus I was able to look in every morning--it's something of a guess, because they are soooo clever about burying the eggs!! But I *think* the next egg appeared early in the day. Also, how long does a female incubate the eggs? And approximately how long is the nestling phase? Oh my, I'll have to look this one up myself! Looking at the window-deep snow, it's hard to believe it's getting close to that time... Rhonda Watts Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 08:28:13 -0600 Horace--- I have no personal experience with Chickadees but have been trying to attract them. The information that I do have indicates they lay 6-8 eggs, have an incubation time of 12 days, and then have 16 days until fledging. Hope this helps a little. Jay Gilliam -----Original Message----- From: Horace Sher [mailto:hjsher1"at"yahoo.com] ... Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 08:45:26 -0600 Horace--- The times I gave you were for Black-capped Chickadees. The Carolina Chickadee lays six eggs, incubates for 11-12 days, then have 13-17 days to fledge. I didn't pay attention to where you are from so I just assumed you meant Black-capped when you asked about chickadees. Sorry about that!! Jay Gilliam -----Original Message----- From: Gilliam, Jay ... Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 10:26:04 -0600 At 04:41 PM 3/14/01 -0800, you wrote: Hi..This msg is to people who have had Chickadees ... Horace, I generally AVOID checking any nestboxes just before dark. My concern is that the bird will not return to the nest that night, and if she is incubating or brooding, that could be disastrous. The same check could be made very early in the morning. If the bird roosted there, it would probably still be there. Kate Oschwald Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 12:39:04 -0500 To all the Chickadee-fanciers, (and I'm one) I've found that Chickadees, for some reason, often bury their eggs in the nest in such a way that you wouldn't see them at all unless you made a special effort. They don't bury them with their standard green moss, but with light fluffy stuff of some kind that you can easily push aside, - even blow aside. So don't assume that there are no eggs present until you've looked just a little more carefully, and maybe poked around some. I think I've read that most birds follow the same one-egg-a-day laying schedule that Bluebirds use. But I'm prepared to be corrected on that one. And usually the day's egg is laid sometime before noon. Bruce Burdett, NH Bluebird Conspiracy, Sunapee NH Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 12:48:28 -0800 (PST) Bruce, et al: I've noticed the same thing re: burying eggs in my chickadee nest boxes. Carolina Wrens will do the same thing, although I've seen some of them do a more elaborate job of burying or covering the eggs than just using the soft stuff Bruce describes. In my backyard, the light, fluffy stuff of choice is Sheltie fur. My two Shelties shed out their undercoat right about nesting time and the chickadees, titmice and wrens love it. Karen To all the Chickadee-fanciers, ... Bruce Burdett, NH Bluebird Conspiracy, Sunapee NH Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 18:25:27 -0500 I believe that the incubation phase is strictly 11-12 days for the Carolinas' and the nestling phase is 13-17 days. For all of us up north and our Black Caps, the incub. phase is strictly 12 days and the fledging happens after 16 days in that nice mossy nest. Enjoy your Day Folks..........or night. Kevin Bloom From: "Rwatts" rwatts"at"mymailstation.com ... Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:56:30 -0800 I'm not sure about the chickadee's habit of burying its eggs since the chickadees on our site all nest in cavities in our woodland. But I do agree with Bruce's information on egg laying for all species about whom I have ever read. Judy Mellin ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Burdett blueburd"at"srnet.com ... Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 12:25:36 -0500 Gary Springer, Carnesville, Georgia The Carolina and Black Capped Chickadees have always been at the top of my list of favorite birds. And, they have consistently occupied about twenty five percent of my nest boxes for ten years. I always assumed the activities of these chickadees around a nest box were pretty much the same as the bluebird, which by virtue of its larger size and less secretive nature around the nest box, is an easier bird to observe. But, now that I've been paying close attention to the Carolina Chickadee that is nesting outside my bedroom window, I've noticed there are a lot of differences. Has the nesting activity of either the Black-Capped Chickadee or the Carolina Chickadee ever been recorded by a Cornell nest box cam? And, if it has, are the photos or information learned readily available. Gary Springer Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 11:11:48 -0500 Gary Springer Carnesville, Georgia While spending most of my relaxation time over the last two weeks watching Carolina Chickadees build a nest in a nest box just outside my bedroom window, a Carolina Wren laid 5 eggs in a slot box mounted on the outside wall of the house just above the same window. And, I never saw it coming or going. I placed an inch and a quarter hole size reducer on the box occupied by the Chickadees yesterday and the birds seemed not to notice it. I will reduce it again to an inch and an eighth if I remember to buy a bit of that size. In my experience, even if you are trying to attract chickadees and smaller
cavity nesting birds, success rates are higher if you stay with an inch and Not only does it seem a box with a larger hole attracts these smaller birds
more readily, but also, setting out all boxes with inch and a half holes Gary Springer Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 23:05:15 EST In a Message dated 3/18/01 11:13:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, In my experience, even if you are trying to attract chickadees and smaller cavity nesting birds, success rates are higher if you stay with an inch and a half entrance hole, then reduce it depending on the species that uses the box. I agree Gary. But since I will have to be away for two weeks during April I have brought mine down to 1 and 1/4" already to provide protection from House Sparrows if any come while I am away. I hope at least the chickadees will find this hole big enough to be attracted to initially? I know it is only just big enough for Tufted Titmice but I didn't have any sucess attracting those last year anyway. For the bluebirds I am using slot boxes so that at least they will have an escape route. I also have Carolina Wrens around and hope maybe they will also use one of the slot boxes. Are they particularly attracted to slot boxes do you find? Jane Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:03:30 EST Hi all, As this is my 1st year for nest boxes, I did a lotta research before building
anything, & read nowhere about this. I am a bit concerned. I have a Chickadee
box up, with a 1 1/8" hole as per all I've read, as well as a few other species
boxes with recommended hole sizes. Are they reluctant to enter the smaller
holes? Should I enlarge the holes now or would it be to late? I'd really hate to
not have many/any takers because of this. Thanks in advance!! Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 07:34:27 -0800 (PST) Hi J...Dot Forester recently told the list of her experience doing what you
want to do. She said that when she added the hole restricter before eggs were
laid that the Chickadees ended up abandoning the nest. What I did is to put up 3
1 1/2 in. boxes & 1 box that was about 1 1/4 in. & whoever gets them 1st, so be
it. So far a Chickadee has finished her nest in 1 box. The EABL kicked a
Chickadee out of 1 of the other boxes. Now EABL are deciding on the other 2 1
1/2 in. box. And a Red-bellied Woodpecker enlarged that 1 1/4 in. box to 1 1/2
in. & is still vacant, but Nuthatches, Chickadees & Titmouse are all checking
out the box....Horace in NC. *********************************************** ... Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:43:04 -0500 No, Kevin Bloom Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:46:07 EST I agree with Dot and Horace that if you put a hole restricor on once nest building has started but before eggs are laid there is a significant risk that the chickadees will abandon. But what I was hoping to do was have the hole restictors on before nest building even begins because of having to be away and wanting to exclude HOuse SParrows as much as possible. However I now remember that even a 1 and 1/4" may not exclude the HOSP ( they can squeeze in ) and from Horace's experience so far it seems that the bigger holes are more attractive. So I would say to anyone who doesn't need to worry about HOSP leave the holes bigger for now if you can. There may be some competition with bluebirds etc. but if there are enough boxes they will sort themselves out. As for me, I will have to try leaving the holes small while I am away and just see what happens. It will be an experiment to see if they will take the boxes with the smaller holes if there is no alternative. Jane Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:51:57 -0500 Barry, I am posting this to list as well and I hope you don't mind as I don't like to reply something that was personally emailed to each other to the list. Its just I think some are asking the same question as you. Yes, I do put my reducer on after the eggs are laid and yes the woodchips DO help with chickadees, especially sawdust. I made a chickadee box last year at 1 1 1/8" and I placed it alongside the woods when I tested the Bluebirds vs Chickadees, Remember? Anyway, the Black Caps had no hesitation to go in. I know that people on this list had said that their chickadees do and sometimes so do mine but not that pair, because they didn't take the 1 1/2" hole house which was just 9ft. in front of it. They chose the 1 1/8". Chickadees naturally excavate their own homes in trees. The ones they do excavate on their own are usually no larger than 1 1/8". I don't know why they seem to like the 1 1/2" better than the smaller hole, probably just commen sense for them. Hope this helps at least a bit. Kevin Bloom From: Barry Whitney barryw"at"pebbles.mcg.edu ... From: bluebird-owner"at"fsinc.com on behalf of Gary Springer [springer"at"alltel.net] ----- Original Message ----- Gary Springer Carnesville, Georgia From: bluebird-owner"at"fsinc.com on behalf of Gary Springer [springer"at"alltel.net] ----- Original Message ----- Gary Springer Carnesville, Georgia Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 03:13:08 -0500 Gary Springer Carnesville, Georgia Two list members have noted that Chickadees abandoned a nest after an entrance hole size reducer was applied; a Black-capped Chickadee in New York and a Carolina Chickadee in South Carolina. This is only the second year I've reduced the entrance holes to nest boxes occupied by Carolina Chickadees and Tufted Titmice. Last year I reduced the entrances to six boxes used by Chickadees and two used by Titmice. All were reduced to inch and a quarter and none abandoned. I reduced a seventh Chickadee entrance hole three days ago with no apparent affect. It appears to me that Carolina Chickadees build dummy nests, are driven from nest sites and/or simply change their mind more often than bluebirds. The abandonment's reported may have occurred even if the reducer had not been applied. Before I ever used reducers, on several occasions, Chickadees put an inch or more of green moss in the bottom of one nest box, then moved to a second nest box within 100 feet of the first to begin the nest building process again. It is possible that what actually happened is the original pair was run off by a second pair that selected a different box. There are at least two reasons that the rate of nest abandonment for Chickadees might exceed that of bluebirds. First, the Chickadee is so much smaller, there are more birds able to exert enough pressure on them to cause abandonment, including bluebirds. Second, unless a female urgently needs a nest in which to lay eggs, such as when its first nest site has been lost, I believe it takes much more of an investment in time for a Chickadee to build a nest than it does for a bluebird to build one. Chickadees use smaller morsels of scarcer materials and in many cases pile up more of it. Therefore, more things can go wrong before the nest is complete. However, as a general rule, it seems the longer you wait, the more investment the birds will have in the nest and the less likely they will abandon. But, while you're waiting for the chickadee to have a good investment in a nest, a bluebird or other larger bird may evict the chickadee. I've reduced the hole size both before and after egg laying. . But, I have never reduced the hole when there was only green moss in the box, even if the green moss was several inches thick. I've always waited until they had a nice fur lined cup before applying the hole size reducer. Another factor may be that all my nest boxes already have a wooden block predator guard on the front. Therefore, adding the hole reducer changes the appearance of the nest box very little. Yet another factor is that as of this writing I have never reduced the hole to an inch and an eighth, just an inch and a quarter. I feel like the birds are much more secure in a box with an inch and a quarter hole than with an inch and a half hole, and that they will be even safer if the hole is reduced to an inch and an eighth. Maybe I was fortunate I didn't have that inch and an eighth bit in the beginning. Gary Springer Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 07:52:12 -0500 Since I am the NY resident who reported two black-capped chickadee abandonments after adding a restrictor hole, I thought I had better respond. Gary may be correct in that my action had nothing to do with abandonment, since only green moss was in the box at the time, not a nest cup. I want to reassure everyone, though, that the 1-1/8" entrance hole was not the problem, as my hanging boxes often used by chickadees all have that size entrance. My added hole size reducer was indeed a different color from the box, which may have made it too noticeable. Or perhaps the chickadees here are less tolerant of people around their box early in the nest building season. Two experiences are not enough to make an informed decision - I just wanted to make everyone aware of the possible need to be discreet with this species. Dot (Lake Ontario snowbelt north of Syracuse NY) ... Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 08:49:21 EST Hi Folks, This has been a great discussion. I thank you all. I've got a question for Gary. Gary, In your 01-03-20 03:15:27 EST post you offer some possible reasons for birds not abbandoning their nestbox after you reduced the size of the entrance hole. Here's one that you wrote: Another factor may be that all my nest boxes already have a wooden block predator guard on the front. Therefore, adding the hole reducer changes the appearance of the nest box very little. I don't want to assume that you attached the restrictor block on the face of the existing wooden predator guard block, so I've got to ask if you removed the predator guard block then installed the restrictor hole block in place of the similarly appearing guard block? Thanks in advance. Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:44:07 -0800 (PST) Greetings...I have been spending a great deal of time observing what's happening at my front & side EABL nest boxes, both which are quite close to my windows, but are not in direct view of each other. I would like to post my observations as briefly as I can. The EABL were checking out the front box all last summer, fall & this winter. The Chickadee started checking the front box, I think a couple months ago & started a nest of moss..about 1/2" or less deep. The EABL evicted those Chickadees from the front box. Then later I noticed a Chickadee nest being started in the side box about a couple weeks ago. Well, the EABL & Chickadee fought over that one, too. But as I mentioned in a previous post, the Chickadee managed to make continuous progress with his nest. The EABL has tried very hard to evict those Chickadees from side box, but have not so far. I saw that as the EABL were flying to this box, the Chickadee flew into this box & stayed there. The EABL just hovered outside the opening & in my opinion were reluctant or afraid to go inside. This has happened several times. So I think that if a Chickadee really wants a box, this is how he defends it. Now maybe Gary is right in that if the Chickadee nest has just started, the Chickadee doesn't have very much of a footing(low in the nest) to stand on. But if he's able to complete much of his nest(my situation), then he's perching high in the box & can snap back at the EABL at the opening. This is exactly what I observed. I'd be interested in hearing any other observations. I don't have HOSP, but I think it's much better to play it safe & put a hole reducer on after an egg appears....Thanks...Horace in NC. *****- Gary Springer springer"at"alltel.net wrote: ... ===== Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 13:09:43 -0500 Where do you purchase a hole reducer to use on a standard wooden bluebird house or do you just make one. Sharon Johnson in Waco, TX ... Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 16:57:34 -0400 We have a 1 1/2" hole NABS-style nest box in our back yard that a male Chickadee has been inspecting for the last couple of weeks. This morning my husband mounted a second NABS-style box with a 1 1/4" hole on a pole about 30 feet from that box. Within half an hour a Chickadee pair inspected the box, with the male spending about 20 minutes inside it. Within the next hour, a second pair of Chickadees entered the scene and began discussions about who should claim the box. So.....my husband began work on yet another NABS-style box which will have a 1 1/4" hole and be mounted within 15 feet or so of the first smaller entrance box. We were amazed at how quickly the Chickadees took to the box with the smaller entrance hole. They displayed no interest in the 1 1/2" opening NABS box this a.m. and have not attempted to nest in it in prior years. Diane Seward, Potomac, MD, 18 miles NW of central Washington, DC Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 01:00:25 -0500 Hi Tom, I place the hole size reducer directly over the wooden block predator guard. The reducer is made of quarter inch thick rough cut oak and is the same shape as the predator guard already on the nest box. Gary Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 02:01:34 -0500 Hi Horace, I agree it is likely that part of the Chickadee's strategy is to defend the box from the inside. It is so small it needs every advantage it can get. A near relative, the tufted titmouse, hisses and makes scary snake-like sounds and startling thuds from within the box when it is tampered with. But the reason the chickadee will be less likely to abandon when nest building is further along is that it is has more of an investment and is more attached to the box, not that there is more material upon which to perch. I tried but was unable to determine from the nest box cam whether or not they determined if the female chickadee always roosted inside the nest box over night. It appears that the one in my yard is. And, as of the last two days, when it is getting dark and just before day light, one of the pair, which I presume is the male, frequently lands in front of the entrance hole for just an instant as though it is making sure the female inside is all right. This morning when it was barely light enough to see, there was a heavy down pour accompanied with very strong gusts of wind that shook the nest box and all the surrounding trees violently. About every four or five minutes the bird which does not enter the box landed in front of the hole for just an instant as described. And you touched on another reason this bird will sometimes be successful in competing with the bluebirds despite its smaller size. For the most part it claims its nest site and builds its nest earlier in the season than does the bluebird. I believe there is little doubt that if the bluebird acted with conviction it could evict the chickadees very quickly, and that it often does. But, the bluebirds you are watching probably aren't quite ready to begin nest building in earnest. By the time they are, the chickadees may already have eggs or chicks. At that point the chickadees will be very aggressive in protecting the nest box and if there is an alternate site, the bluebirds may select it. Of course, I agree with your plan to reduce the entrance hole to make sure the bluebirds don't ignore the protests of the chickadees, destroy the eggs or chicks and move in behind quickly retreating chickadees. Gary Springer Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:28:20 -0800 Portland, Oregon, USA All this discussion about chicadee housing.... I put out a "chickadee" house and the HOSP promptly moved in, built a nest and laid eggs (that's as far as it got). I was miffed! So I read on the BBlist that 1-1/4" hole was the right size. I didn't even measure the hole on the one I had (I had stashed it in the basement after the HOSP incicent) because obviously it was too large. I went off to the hardware store, bought the proper 1-1/4" drill bit, and made a minimizer, and fished out the box, and low and behold! It WAS 1-1/4"! Bummer! HOSP had absolutely NO problems entering this size hole. So what do I do next? Do any of you have BC chickadees using boxes with 1-1/8" holes? I'm not sure that I saw a bit that size, but I wasn't looking. Has anyone else had HOSP that could get in a 1-1/4" hole? It's probably a little too late this year (those guys nest *early*), but maybe I can have it out for their inspection. I'd sure appreciate the help. Marsie Nufer Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:54:53 -0500 1 1/8th is the size for the BC Chickadee Joleen in Indiana Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:03:19 -0500 (EST) Hi Marsie, You defiantly need to go to the 1-1/8" hole. The chickadee can still enter ok but there is still some possibility that the sparrow will still be a problem. sparrows will sometimes sit in front of the entrance and block it even if they don't enter. if it was easy none of us would be fighting over their control. i once made a cage to contain trapped sparrows from 1" chicken wire and one actually escaped thru one of the wire holes. On the other hand I once had a Chickadee build in a wren box with a 1" entrance so they can squeeze in a pretty small hole. The 1-1/8" hole saw is a common size and should be easy to find. Joe Huber Venice Fl, Charter member NABS, Charter member OBS, Life member OBS Joe Huber http://community.webtv.net/hubertrap/HOUSESPARROWCONTROL http://community.webtv.net/hubertrap/RoostingBluebirds Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:04:11 -0400 Haleya Priest Amherst MA Marsie, you might want to consider trapping those HOSP, and that way you don't have to worry so much about your other natural cavity nesters. :-) H Virginia Nufer wrote: Portland, Oregon, USA ... Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:18:19 -0500 Last year I had a female eastern bluebird (EABL) enter a mealworm feeder through an opening that measured a little more than 3/4". From what I understand, the recommended opening size is the minimum opening that a species of bird can pass through without damaging their feathers. Oh by the way, this winter when there was several inches of snow on the ground, a European Starling forced their way through an 1 1/2" in a feeder. I have holes, slots and ovals on my nest boxes. The minimum dimension on all is 1 1/2 inches. I have had EABL, TRES (tree swallows) to Carolina chickadees nest in those boxes. I don't know if you can read to much into hole size and I definitely don't think that you can deter house sparrows (HOSP) with hole size. Bob Sitarski ... Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 23:38:03 -0500 Virginia, I will be short, sweet and to the point. House Sparrows can squeeze through a 1" hole. They may have to deflate themselves a bit but they do it. Clever birds. Kevin Bloom ... Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 07:36:42 -0800 (PST) Joe, Marsie and all, I just this week trapped a female house sparrow(HOSP) in my TS-1 ground trap and the bird was in the center holding compartment with water and food, I was using it as a decoy. It was there one minute and the next time I checked it was gone with one of the side traps shut. I can only guess that she squeezed through the hole in the side of the holding compartment and tripped the lid of the side trap on her way out. I'm not sure but the side hole looks like it is even smaller than an inch. Kerry in NE corner of Okla. ... Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:32:41 -0500 (EST) HI Kerry, The ST-1 isn't perfect. A female House sparrow can manage to open the tiny escape door enough to slip thru some times. this doesn't happen often but I've seen it happen. On the way out the one door was tripped so you know which way it went out. Check that little door to be sure it is operating properly. A tiny spring end can slip over the edge allowing this door to open. At times sparrows will escape the elevator type trap by opening the escape door and slipping past. Need to check these to be sure the door doesn't drag the ground preventing complete closure. This loss of a trapped bird may not happen again for years so don't be afraid to trust the trap. Joe Huber Venice Fl. Charter member NABS, Charter member OBS, Life member OBS Joe Huber http://community.webtv.net/hubertrap/HOUSESPARROWCONTROL http://community.webtv.net/hubertrap/RoostingBluebirds Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:54:45 -0600 Here are the results of a study I made for House Sparrows and entry hole size. MINIMUM DIMENSIONS FOR HOUSE SPARROW ENTRY The original article is printed in Volume 21, Number 1, Page 15 of Winter 1999 BLUEBIRD, Journal of the North American Bluebird Society, by Frank Navratil) In 1995, I constructed wooden birdhouses based upon drawings for a slot entry style. (Kentucky Slot). These are very sturdy and easy to build. I still use some in the field and Bluebirds continue to successfully nest in them. A feature was that the one and one-eighth high horizontal entry slot would exclude House sparrows. I guess Chicago areas House Sparrows are smaller in size because they readily nested in these boxes. Curious as to what dimensions an entry must be to really exclude our House Sparrows; I tried various sizes of round, horizontal, and vertical entry holes. First I allowed the sparrows to build nests and lay eggs in five wooden NABS houses with their 1-1/2 inch (3.8 cm) round holes. Now that the sparrows were motivated to re-enter the houses, I narrowed the entry openings day by day. Sounds diabolical, doesn't it? I varied the entry size by screwing squares of 1/8 plywood with different hole sizes over the original 1-1/2 inch (3.8 cm) round entry hole. Cutting two holes using the appropriate diameter hole saw; then carefully filing out the space in between these holes, made the slots. Here are the results: Round: *** 1-1/4 inch (3.2 cm) diameter still allows entry. Horizontal slot: *** 1-1/2 x 1 inch (3.8 x 2.5 cm) slot still allows entry. Vertical slot: *** 1 x 1-1/2 inch (2.5 x 3.8 cm) slot still allows entry. I was really surprised by the small opening required to exclude the sparrows, especially in the slot configuration. As far as House Sparrow motivation is concerned, it seems they are always motivated. I have watched sparrows try to enter a tiny wren house with a 1-inch (2.5 cm) diameter entry hole for days at a time. Not too bright I guess, but based on their breeding success, that persistence must be a good characteristic. Frank Navratil Sr. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Bloom" kjbloom20"at"hotmail.com ... Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 22:48:49 -0800 (PST) Hi Gary...In our last discussion about Chickadees, I believe you mentioned that you thought Chickadees might be roosting in the nestbox. We both have observed Chickadees being in the boxes just before dark, & probably just after it began getting light in morning. Well tonight I stumbled upon the positive proof, mainly by accident. The last few days another Chickadee started showing interest in my front box. But the EABL also have been interested in that box. Earlier today Friday morning, there was no nest started in that box. Late Fri. night I began wondering whether the EABL had started her nest in that box by the afternoon, since today's weather was so mild.. so I checked it. A Chickadee flew out. No nest had been started by either bird. It was late, dark, & 40 degrees. No harm done. The Chickadee flew to a nearby tree. So there's our answer for sure. I was interested in knowing this. Thought you & others might want to know for sure, also..that Chickadees do roost in boxes even though the temperature isn't really cold...in the 40's..... Horace in NC. ===== Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 11:17:29 -0500 Frank and all, Don't want to over ride your results but what I have stated is true. I also have a witness, a friend that can tell you this. I took a block of wood and drilled it with a 1" drill bit. It was about two weeks or so until I caught a sparrow in Mel's inbox trap. Before I put him into the holding area of the ST-1 to act as a decoy, we put the block of wood in front of the inbox trap 1 1/2" hole pointing down to the holding area of the ST-1. Yes, it took a little bit of might but HE DID SQUEEZE THROUGH! What prompted me to try this with the house sparrow? Some of my books say that they can squeeze through 1" holes if they try. So I had to see for myself. I doubt that you will get them to nest in your 1" hole box because who wants a home that you literally have to SQUEEZE through a hole everytime you have to tend to your young when you have a perfectly good looking 1 1/2" whole or bigger to raise your young at. Its not to hard of a decision, right? This is what I have found to be true around here. Kevin Bloom From: "Frank Navratil Sr" frnavrat"at"concentric.net ... Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 23:04:01 -0700 I had a somewhat similiar experience to Gene's, involving Bluebirds and Chickadees. A few days ago I discovered a Chicadee nest made of soft moss in my Bluebird nestbox. As I was watching it, a male Eastern Bluebird came to the box and tried to enter it. Quite a little skirmish for a few seconds, but the Chickadee won out. Within 30 minutes I put up another bluebird box about 10 yards from the other, which was discovered almost instantly by the Bluebird. Unfortunately, after 2 days, no activity, nothing. I assumed that maybe it was too close to the other box so I moved it to the side of the house. I feel certain the Bluebird knows it's there, but still no activity. If anyone has any suggestions as to what, if anything I can do differently, please let me know. Thanks. Larry ----- Original Message ----- ... Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 23:33:31 -0400 A little over a week ago there were a couple posts from writers that indicated chickadees vacated the nest attempt after the size of the entrance hole to the nest box was reduced. I had mantioned that I had not had that problem but that I believed it was because I placed the hole reducer on the nest box either after the chickadee had completed the fur lined cup in the nest, or, after the eggs were laid. At that time I had one nest box with almost three inches of green moss on the bottom of the box but no fur cup. As an experiment to see if the chickadee building this nest would vacate, I placed the hole reducer on the nest box before the final cup was started. It has been over a week and it appears the chickadee has abandoned. If there isn't severe competition for a nest box, I'd probably wait until the eggs were laid. In those cases where there is a lot of battling between different species going on, I'd probably reduce the entrance hole after the fur lined cup is complete. But, even before that, I'd put out a couple more nest boxes. Gary Springer Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:11:57 -0700 (PDT) Greetings Gary & to all...Just to continue our discussion on this topic. I'm currently observing 3 C. Chickadee nests in EABL boxes without restrictors. Two of the nests have right much fur or hair around the cup. But the 3rd doesn't have hardly any fur or none at all around the cup..interesting. But as I mentioned before, if one is going to add a hole reducer or restrictor after nest building, I'd always wait until at least 1 egg is there to be safe. I've seen a Chickadee wonderfully protect his/her nest a day or two before the eggs appeared. Who knows..that Chickadee could have been a 2 year old or so? Just an observation to add to our knowledge of Chickadees...Regards...Horace in NC. ************************************************ ===== Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 13:32:32 -0500 Hello birders, Unbelievable weather all morning. Always heard of golf ball size hail and larger but had never actually seen it 'til today. Broken windows and car damage with heavy rains and hurricane like winds. Went out to check my modest Bluebird trail. Everything was fine thankfully and even a new Bluebird egg in one nestbox. She must have laid the egg real early before the storms hit. Thanks for all the e-mails on my Carolina Chickadee nest. A full, complete nest for 2 days now but still no eggs. Does anyone know if there is an usual time period between nest build complete and first egg for the Carolina Chickadee?. I have to admit, the recent discussions on both Cedar vs. pine nestboxes and mealworm feeding have been thought provoking for me. I will begin making logical changes to my trail and provide feedback to this forum of any results and/or conclusions. Bob Sitarski South/central Indiana Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:04:22 -0700 (PDT) Hi Bob and Everyone, First time poster but I believe I can help with the chickadee question. Chickadees usually line their nest with a layer of hair. She will lay her eggs one per day, usually about six eggs. She will bury the eggs under the hair until all eggs have been layed. If you gently check underneath you may find the eggs. Let me introduce myself. My experience with nestboxes only goes back a few years but I jumped in head first. After two years in my yard with successful nestings by bluebirds, tree swallows, carolina chickadees and house wrens I volunteered to take care of the bluebird trail at the local state park. I'm now into my second year with 24 boxes. I joined this list to glean a little more information and if I can offer some in return, I,m glad to help. I look forward to reading all about your experiences and I'll try to keep you up to date from my little corner of the world. Jim Elliot ... Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 01:21:25 -0500 Hello Carolina/Black capped Chickadee experts, For 7 consecutive days now, I have checked a PVC nest box that has a completed Carolina Chickadee nest in it. No eggs however, and for the last 3 days a Carolina Chickadee was in the box. The bird just looks up at me and just basically rode out my inspection. I seem to be of little concern to the bird and only a minor distraction. I have read that the Carolina Chickadee lays between 5-8 eggs. Like many other birds, the female lays one egg per day until she is 'finished'. Four days ago, there were no eggs in the nest... I moved the fur to make sure that they weren't buried/hidden. Shortly after I inspected the nest box, a Bluebird pair came along. The male landed on the roof and the female peered into the oval opening. I expected fireworks because I knew the Chickadee was still in there. Now that I have you on the edge of your seat, do you know what happened?. Absolutely nothing. After about 30 seconds of the female blue peeking in the hole, she flew away with the male blue close behind. Now my question; is it strange for a Chickadee to sit on a complete nest for an extended period of time before laying eggs?. The nest has been complete for at least 7 days and really more like 10 days. What would a female Chickadee or any female bird do if the male was lost after attracting her to the nest site. Do female birds attract the male too?. Bob Sitarski South/central Indiana Chickadees (Part 3) |
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