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Nest abandonment (Part 3)Also see Clean Nest or Abandoned? Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 19:35:16 -0700 (PDT) This past Monday a fifth egg was laid in an EABL nest. On Wednesday there were only 4 eggs (I have lost 4 EABL in 3 different nestboxes this year). With all my good fortune on my Indiana and Illinois trails this year, there has been new disappointments for me too. I expect that House wrens took the eggs and 5 nestlings were lost to a HOSP attack. Although I haven't compiled all of the data yet but I believe that I will have a higher percentage of unhatched EABL eggs. Certainly the weather played a part in addition to the early first eggs. Anyway, back to the nest with 4 eggs on Wedneday. I haven't seen either adult since Monday. I don't think that the eggs are being incubated at all. If no female appears by Monday I was wondering if the eggs could be added to a new nest. I will probably have 2 new EABL nests on my Illinois trail by the time I return there on Tuesday but nothing just beginning in Indiana. The nestbox is in Jackson County Indiana and I know that there are several from the list from Brown and Lawrence Counties. Should the e ggs be placed in a new nest?. How long should one wait?. How long can the eggs last in the nest before incubation. Have a good day Bob Sitarski a.k.a The Doctor Jackson County Indiana ( 385244N 086023W ) & Clay County Illinois ( 384008N 0882908W ) Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 10:06:18 -0400 Haleya Priest Amherst MA Read on for the story: I came home and left the eggs and nest in my very cold car for about 2 hrs before I started feeling a nagging sensation that maybe I should put them back. I did - and the next morning THOSE EGGS WERE WARM AS TOAST! I was sure I had killed the poor things - but they goodness they all hatched and fledged successfully. This also tells us how long eggs can sit cold! Well I just went out on my trail this weekend to check the damage report from horrific winds and cold wet weather. I found one nest that appeared abandoned. She had been incubating for a week or so. NO blues around and the eggs were STONE COLD. I mean stone cold. ALL SIGNS told me that this was an abandoned nest. But I remembered what had happened to me years ago and so I decided to wait and see. 48 hours later I returned and there was the male by the nest and by goodness those eggs were WARM AS TOAST!! So even if all signs tell you a nest is a abandoned - I don't care how cold those eggs feel - don't assume it is abandoned! It is obvious these eggs are viable stone cold on and off through out the incubation cycle! Wait a minimum of 24 hours and feel them again. Wait another day if need be, but let's not assume abandonment until we find they are consistently cold!! Happy bluebirding :-) H Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 18:55:24 -0400 Haleya was really kind to not mention names, but I was the guilty party who removed ice-cold eggs from "abandoned" nests. The clutches were 11 and 12 days old; another was 20 days old. To all you old hands: do you know if eggs this far along are still viable when icy-cold to the touch? Can they tolerate such wide temperature swings and still hatch? --At the end of last year's first brood when we cleaned out boxes, we found nest after nest of dead nestlings/fledglings and eggs -- and I (stupidly) assumed I was seeing the same thing again, with two cold, wet springs back to back. Boy -- this 1s a learning experience! Dot From: "Mary Beth Roen" mbroen"at"hotmail.com Hi everyone, I have a nest of 5 EABL eggs that was laid by April 23. This nest of eggs went through 2 snowstorms and very cold, but not freezing weather. I have not seen the eggs incubated by the female. The eggs have sunk in to the bottom of the nest, and it even appears to have some of the nest grasses over the top of these eggs. Can I assume that this nest has been abandoned and remove it? If the clutch was finished April 23, they should have hatched May 8th or so, but I thought if incubation didn't start right away due to the cold weather, I should give them some extra time before removing the nest and hoping for a renesting by the pair. Now that it is almost another week later, should I remove it? The pair may have moved to a new box in my front yard, as I have active nests of EABLs in my front and back yards for the first time ever. I'd appreciate your input before I do anything. Mary Roen, River Falls, WI From: "judymellin" judymellin"at"netzero.net Since you seem to have more boxes, my suggestion would be to leave the nest as it is. I have a nest that has taken over three weeks to go from 3 to 5 eggs so I think the female is still around that box. I'm waiting it out since, several years ago, I had a nest of four eggs that sat for over a month, the female (or another one) then laid a fifth egg and, four weeks later, all five fledged. So my advise is to keep the faith- and be glad "our" birds here in the upper Midwest are smart enough to watch WGN weather! Judy Mellin ... From: "Mary Beth Roen" mbroen"at"hotmail.com I have a nest of 5 EABL eggs that was laid by April 23. This nest of eggs went through 2 snowstorms and very cold, but not freezing weather. I have not seen the eggs incubated by the female. The eggs have sunk in to the bottom of the nest, and it even appears to have some of the nest grasses over the top of these eggs. Can I assume that this nest has been abandoned and remove it? If the clutch was finished April 23, they should have hatched May 8th or so, but I thought if incubation didn't start right away due to the cold weather, I should give them some extra time before removing the nest and hoping for a renesting by the pair. Now that it is almost another week later, should I remove it? The pair may have moved to a new box in my front yard, as I have active nests of EABLs in my front and back yards for the first time ever. I'd appreciate your input before I do anything. Mary Roen, River Falls, WI Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 21:06:40 -0700 I'd recommend you not remove/destroy them. This happened on my trail at a site for both clutches. An early cold-weather spring clutch and a hot-weather second clutch at the same site had eggs almost buried in the nest with only the top of the eggs visible. Reminded me of cobblestones. I gently lifted the eggs out from the straw. Too busy right now to back into the dates to see if it was possible for the female to have removed the buried eggs and lay fresh clutches, so I'll leave the math to you. Here's my notes: 3/25/99 Full nest, rainy, no bluebirds seen 6/18 2 Eggs Mary Beth Roen wrote: ... From: "Dottie Kile" dmkile"at"earthlink.net Dottie Kile - Waleska, GA I too am in a quandry about one lonely EABL egg in the nest from which there were 5 eggs and I thought I counted 5 babies that fledged on Sunday morning. It was Mother's Day and we had family activities and just didn't get out to remove the old nest until Monday evening. Well, to my surprise there was an egg in the nest. It is an EABL egg for sure. I left the nest there and expected to find another egg in it this morning. I thought that would confirm my analogy that Mama had started laying eggs again before I had gotten the old one out. Well, today there is still one egg in the nest. Now what do I do? If I leave it in there and it is an old egg that didn't hatch for some reason, is there a chance that Mama will not come back to lay more eggs in this nest. I have had 4 broods each of the 4 years since we've lived here in GA. Is there any way to tell if the egg is new or old. I had shoulder replacement surgery in March and my husband didn't feel comfortable checking on the eggs and nest while I was recuperating. I'm sure there were 5 eggs and I thought I counted 5 hungry little beaks open waiting for food when I checked after they hatched. Any suggestions as to what I should do? It's so early in the year and we should have at least 3 more broods before fall. I'll check in the morning for another egg. Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 07:22:01 -0500 At 06:37 AM 5/20/02 -0500, Cameron wrote: I didn't want to speculate on the broken egg, but I would not assume the mom is gone, just because you don't see her. One of the female bluebirds in my nestboxes was "never" on the nest when I checked, but her eggs hatched and the babies fledged last week, so she was there! I don't know how shy chickadees are, but you might try just observing the box for a length of time, if you haven't already done so. Eggs can break for a variety of reasons, including the monitor "feeling" for them, or the mother bird being startled off the nest and the eggs "slamming" together... Kate Oschwald Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 07:30:45 -0500 At 01:11 PM 5/20/02 -0400, Pam Tellier wrote: Unlike a caring monitor, "nature" does not care about the individuals, just the species. Since the parents have plenty of time for more nestings this season, their need for reproduction will still be met. This is the only consolation you can take from a loss such as this. I hope for your sake they try again soon, and you can see a successful nesting from start to finish! Kate Oschwald From: "jodyrose" jodyrose"at"bright.net I have a few questions. I need some advise. I have 10 nest boxes on my 3 1/2 acres. They are paired in 5 pairs. Box 1. TRES nest had 3 eggs on 5/15, still 3 eggs on 5/19. Today ( 5/21) eggs are gone. Not seen on ground under box. Just gone. Should I remove the nest? The TRES seem to still be flying around and sitting on the box. They won't renest using the same nest will they? Do TRES renest and try again if the first nest fails? I understand they only have one nesting per season. Second question: I have a nest of 4 baby bluebirds. Age 12 - 13 days. It has been very cold here the last 3 nights. I have not looked in the box for 3 days due to cold, rainy, windy weather here. I have been watching, and the male and female were still making trips to the box with food. So I was sure things were OK. Today it was a little warmer, and not windy. The babies were alive. Not very lively and I had to watch for a bit to be sure they were breathing. I touched them lightly and there was movement. But the box is very dirty. Has bird poop on the walls inside and in the nest, and on the entrance hole going into the box. I have never seen a nest so soiled. I have watched the female go inside the box and stay for a period of time the last few days. I was getting severely scolded by the female, while I was doing my check of this box. And she immediately flew to the box and entered when I backed off. Has anyone else seen such soiling of a bluebird nest? I am thinking I should just leave it and not try to intervene by placing a cleaner nest, since the babes are getting to the age when I will have to stop peeking in on them. They have survived the worst of the weather, as they promise it will be sunny and warmer in the days to come. And a third quick question. I have 2 boxes that have the beginnings of neat nests but after a week or 10 days there has been no more nest building and no more progress. Although there are MANY TRES flying around and landing frequently on the box and pole. How long do I leave the nest there before cleaning it out. If these are not the same TRES that started the nest will another pair come along and finish the nest, or be deterred because there is a partial nest already there? I know that is a lot of questions. I have learned so much from you all on this list. Love reading about all your experiences. Thanks in advance. Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 10:01:34 -0400 From Ruth, Souderton, Pa., oinker"at"comcast.net HELP! For the last 5 years I have had the same pair of EABL raise young in one of my three nest boxes. This year the female laid 5 eggs of which only 3 hatched. The three babies were born 5/15. Both male and female were feeding the young. The male disappeared on the 5th day and has never come back. The mommy has been feeding them by herself all this time and I have been helping her by supplementing with mealworms. This morning when I called her, she did not go to the mealworm dish. She sat on the birdbath and then chased a house sparrow away from the box. She did not come for mealworms (which she always did to feed herself and babies). Next I saw her sitting on neighbor's garage roof looking over my way. (I was standing by the box) She just sat there and looked but did not come over. That was at 7:30 a.m. and I have not seen her since. It is now 9:30 a.m. and I am worried silly. The babies are 15 days old. What do I do? Do I take them and put them in a birdcage and feed them mealworms. They are not ready to fledge for another 3-4 days. I MUST SAVE THESE BABIES, IF MOMMY IS GONE. HELP!! (P.S.-it has now been 2 1/2 hrs. since I last saw mommy) From: "Randy Jones" randyj"at"enter.net You've got to get them to a rehabber right away, like now. Haleya Priest is the expert on this, but I'm sure there is a website which will help you locate a rehabber in your area. Randy Jones ... Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 10:50:44 -0400 Before the dramatic step of the rehabber... If the nestlings are truly 15 days old and the female is feding without assistane from the male, she could be beginning the process of encouraging them to leave the nest. I've seen 15 day-old fledglings. Also, I may be wrong, but I don't believe that 2 1/2 hours without being feed is that unusual or critical at this stage (they go all night without food). The prudent thing to do may be to just keep watching. Sometimes we react too quickly. Others on this list, please let me know if I'm off target. Pam in HArford County, Maryland. ... Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 12:26:41 -0400 Pam is right. A rule of thumb I have read about on this list is that we should intervene only after four hours of no feeding activity. (Doreen Scriven also advises waiting four hours.) Mealworms can be fed to 15-day-old nestlings with blunt tweezers, but do not attempt to give the chicks water. Also, well moistened (but not totally liquid) high protein dry cat or dog food, pulverized in a blender, or well moistened canned dog food mashed into small bits, can be fed in small amounts using the same method or using another type of smooth applicator. Diane Seward -----Original Message----- ... From: "Doug Rohde" d.rohde"at"attbi.com Pam is giving sound advice. Although 15 days would be an early fledging, it is not too early for the parent to begin the process that leads to fledging, which includes less frequent feeding and being a bit more 'distant'. It would be very unusual for mom to abandon the nest at this point. Keep watch - I'll bet she returns to feed them this afternoon. Doug ... Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 17:29:00 -0400 From Ruth Brinckman, Souderton, Pa. oinker"at"comcast.net After a lot of searching and calling for rehab centers in my area, I finally decided to take the three EABL nestlings to a wildlife center about 25 miles from my home. This was the closest one to me and it's name is "The Aark Education & Rehabilitation Center" in Newtown, Pa. The staff was very kind and is very knowledgeable in handling, feeding and raising wild birds, and other wildlife. This weekend they are having their annual open house and I will be attending. They operate strictly by membership fees and donations (I will be joining.) They were able to feed the babies a special diet and they ate right away (after not having food for 5+ hours). Needless to say I cried all the way home both for the babies and for my Mrs. Blue. When I got home a HOSP was already building a nest in the same bluebird box. Is this the same one that was disturbing Mrs. Blue this morning and did she harm her in anyway? I will never know. But I did learn something from the center and that is "calcium" should be added to the mealworm media since the birds require this for a proper diet. Maybe my mealworm supplement was not good enough for the EABL's diet. Now I am wondering if maybe we (humans) are interferring too much with the bluebirds. P.S. The center just called me to tell me that I could bring the babies home this weekend, as they would probably do much better in the surroundings here at my house. Does anyone have any input on this idea? Thanks so much for listening and for all your advice. BLUEBIRDS FOREVER, Ruth
... Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 17:32:16 -0400 Aark Wildlife Center Home Page
The Aark is nestled in the countryside of Newtown, Pennsylvania. As the Ark of Noah provided refuge from extinction for the worlds wildlife species, the Aark provides temporary sanctuary for thousands of injured and orphaned birds and mammals annually. Founder and Executive Director of the Aark is Mary Jane Stretch, one of the nations leading authorities on wildlife rehabilitation. She holds Federal and Pennsylvania wildlife rehabilitation permits and is a Master Bird Bander. With over thirty years of dedicated experience in aiding the care and rehabilitation of birds and mammals, Ms. Stretch is a frequent speaker before national, state and local groups. Her work has been featured on such national television programs as the Today Show and her lifes dedication has been chronicled in recent books: The Swan in My Bathtub and, more recently, For the Love of Wild Things. Site Updated .. April 2002
If you need assistance with orphaned or injured wildlife - call the Aark at (215)968-4963 if you cannot find the information you need on this site. If you experience technical problems with this site, contact the web administrator by sending an e-mail to webmaster"at"aark.org This e-mail address is for technical issues only - please do not send correspondance regarding wildlife. Take a look at some of the animals we have treated in our Photo Gallery Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 16:40:26 -0500 REGARDING: From Ruth Brinckman, Souderton, Pa. oinker"at"comcast.net P.S. The center just called me to tell me that I could bring the babies Unless one of the parents is there to feed the fledgling bluebirds, these young fledglings will NOT do better at your house! In fact, at the young age of these bluebirds, if they were released, I am certain they would have NO chance of survival. They lack the development and skill to do so. Many rehabbers who have not handled "about to fledge" Eastern Bluebird Nestlings are not aware of this fact: NEWLY FLEDGED BLUEBIRDS ARE TOTALLY DEPENDENT UPON THEIR PARENTS for food and care for nearly 2 weeks or more after fledging from the nestbox. Unlike American Robins which often fly to the ground when they leave the nest, healthy, well-developed fledgling bluebirds fly upward seeking shelter and protection in the inner parts of taller trees.........sticking together within calling distance of each other and their parents. The parents feed them high up in the canopy of the trees and make trip after trip to the nestlings delivering food. (This is why bluebird monitors new to bluebirding wrongly think something has happened to their former nestlings. It's often a good 2 weeks before the young reappear accompanied by their father to bathe and hunt!) This period following the flight from the nestbox becomes a training period on how to hunt, bathe and survive for the young fledglings as the nestlings gain in flight skill. I attempt to foster out nestlings who have lost their parents on my trails to nests where the nestlings are about the same age, but this is not always possible. My rehabber, fortunately for me, is nearby. I have released rehabbed bluebirds for her several times a summer during the past 12 years. Most of those fledglings were released at about 35 days of age or when they could pick up their own food and feed themselves. Without parent birds to take care of them, even then, it is not an easy life for the young released birds. In conclusion, the bluebirds need to remain in the care of a licensed rehabber until they are picking up their own food, drinking and bathing on their own. This will enable them to "up the odds" of surviving in the "great outdoors." I wish you success!!! Ann Wick Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:24:43 -0400 From Ruth in Pa. I've decided to pick up the three baby bluebirds from The Aark Rehab Center since I really believe that they have no expertise in raising and rehabbing bluebird nestlings. I will make the 45 minute trip to get them and transfer them to the Schuylkill Wildlife Rehab Center in Philadelphia, Pa. This will probably be another hour to get there. My husband and I are certainly putting every effort we have into saving these dear little ones. I can't believe that the lady from the Aark told me that the babies would be better off at my house. Apparently they are more skilled in dealing with other wildlife and not bluebirds and they just won't admit that to me. They could have saved me alot of time and trouble and money, had they just told me that in the first place. Anyone wanting to read up the the Schuylkill Wildlife Rehab Center can go to the internet and put it in search. You will find a very detailed write-up on the site. Wish us luck. Thanks, Ruth ----- Original Message ----- ... Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 22:16:14 -0400 Sat.June 1st. From Ruth Brinckman, Souderton, PA My husband and I have spent two hectic and frantic days this week. First we
took the three EABL nestlings to a rehab center 30 minutes away on one day and
then the following day we returned to remove them from that facility and take
them to the Schuylkill Wildlife Rehab Center in Philadelphia. We managed to get
some pictures of them sitting on our hands and shoulders. The little blues
endured the 1BD hour long trip to Philadelphia and were peeping all the way.
When I talked to them and said "here blue" they immediately calmed down and
became very quiet and still. I would call the mommy that way when I had food for
them, and I honestly believe they recognized my voice. BB are very smart birds.
The center has had previous success rehabbing EABL and I only hope and pray that
my little blues will thrive with them. I intend to be in touch with them every
week. They may even allow us to bring them home and release them here when they
are fully ready. The last time mommy blue's eyes and mine met on Thursday
morning, somehow she was telling me to take good care of her babies for her and
I promised to her then that I would do my best. I have shed many tears lately
over these birds and I Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 14:36:15 -0400 The four distressed nestlings in our front-yard box which were delivered to a marvelous rehabber in Thurmont, Maryland, two weeks ago are now 27 days old. The rehabber reports that they are learning to find food for themselves and to bathe. They first flew ("fledged") about a week ago. There is a possibility that the rehabber will allow me to release the young birds in my own yard. She is somewhat concerned, however, about possible stress on the juveniles during the hour's drive from her place to ours, and so may opt to have them released in a park closer to her house. In the meantime, their papa's mate No. 3 laid a third egg this morning and is beginning to spend time on her nest, which she completed on Thursday. I am anticipating the appearance of one more egg before the start of full-time incubation. It seems apparent to me, from observing the male's hovering at the nestbox and hanging onto one side for a time when his new mate enters it, that he is aware that his previous mate perished in that box and is listening for any problems. Okay, perhaps I am reading too much into this blue's behavior, but I have not observed it in other male nesting partners. Diane Seward From: "chickie smith" critters"at"capital.net From: "chickie smith" critters"at"capital.net From: "CJ Hazer" CeeJaaHzr"at"starband.net Dear List, Our bluebird pair (Jack & Jill) have had 2 successful nestings. After their last, we were elated that they were building another nest in another box. In addition, there was another nest being built in yet another box. The nestbox closest to the house was the first to have an egg (7/7). The last egg was laid on 7/9 (3 eggs total). The female is incubating. The nestbox out in the field had the first egg laid on 7/8, the 2nd on 7/9 and the 3rd on 7/10. Since then there has been no nest activity aside from the male flying up to peek in and fly off. When I inspected the nest yesterday, the 3 eggs are cold to the touch. I have not seen the female in several days. I fear she has met an untimely fate. Because she was always diligent with them in the past. I've noticed a male feeding 3 fledglings. Is this our Jack? We realized there was another male when we saw them flutter fighting (mid-air fighting). I guess he's the mate to the female that's incubating 3 eggs successfully. Although, we don't see the male at this new nestbox like Jack was there for Jill. He was always on top of the box or poking his head in to check things out and feed her. I don't mean to ramble, so here's my questions: #1-Should I do anything with the nest/eggs in the nestbox that has no activity and the eggs are cold? #2-How long do parents feed their young? Maybe the male feeding the 3 young is not Jack. Their brood fledged on 5/17/02. Thanks so much for your input. CJ Hazer Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 08:44:33 -0700 Linda Violett - Yorba Linda, Calif. #1 At this late date, why not leave the nest/eggs and wait it out through the end of the season? #2 Parental feeding of fledglings tapers off. Bluebird parents on my Calif.
trail of western blues can still be seen feeding their youngsters a month after
the fledge even though the chicks are able to forage for themselves. CJ Hazer wrote: ... From: beabud"at"comcast.net Have blues that are 9 or 10..They are moving around etc.. Was out all morning came back and watched the box.. Noticed no female around. But the male came tried to look in box real quick and flew away. Then he came again and sat on a limb and flew away.. You can hear the babies chirping...Should i be concerned that the parents are not around more??? I'm in the east in Bethel Connecticut.. My other box of blues fledged and the parents were watching them constantly?? Thanks Bea in Bethel From: beabud"at"comcast.net I called a rehabber, these birds which i believe to be maybe more than 10 have not been looked upon or had parents around for over 6 hours now. They seem to think i should bring them in..If i do not see a bluebird in a hour or so i'm going do. Bea in Bethel From: beabud"at"comcast.net 9/10 day old blues died.Happenend last year as well after a thunderstorm and it got cooler.Last year they were only 3/4days.Very strange. Not sure if its the same pair.Had two successful fledgings with a different pair..It was really hot here then got cooler..Watched the box everyday. Saw the babies head poke out thought all was well. Then noticed the male making different danger noises of such on friday. Opened box on saturday saw movement and looked through hole thought all was well with the babies but did not see the parents. Did see a male bluebird but he tried quickly to look in box then left.. Called a rehabber they said watch and wait as you do not want to pull them.So sat from 12:00-5:00 watched it.. Heard a baby chirping so thought it would be okay even though my gut said take them..A male came by around six would do alot of talking but would not go in still no female..Looked harder in box as it was difficult to see them without reallly disturbing them. Two were dead and one i thought was hanging on..Called the rehabber and said i'm coming now. The baby died. they were about 9/10 days old covered with feathers..Why this happened is beyond me..I have a feeling its the same parents from last year, when thunderstorms or noticable weather changes they take off.. Another thing i have learned is pull them sooner than later and bring to a rehabber..Even if a baby is living inside but no parents are seen all day nor are watching over the box a good bluebirder knows something is not right..I just wish i had noticed things earlier. Bea in Bethel From: beabud"at"comcast.net Why bluebirds abandon their kids is something i'll never understand..No one got in my bluebird house 9/10 days old. Have guards up galore..The three kids died for some reason i feel mainly abandonment or a thunderstorm and cooler weather.. I have not seen either of the adults since..I am angry at myself for not monitoring more intently.. I kept an eye on it everyday and looked in the hole so as not to disturb them and saw movement so figured it was okay...Had a chair outside in the distance so i could see them as well from my screened in porch..The male or a different male was making sounds i never heard, i thought he was annoyed with me..I never dreamt there was a disaster in the box..I know life goes on but one learns and i have..Monitor,Monitor even if you think things are okay..Open the box and watch for parents if they abandoned the kids etc. Two were dead in my box but the other was still chirping but I did not know the others were dead at the time.Rehabber said wait to make sure its abandoned. I waited then 4 hours or so then went in and opened the box, thats when i saw two dead .Ran to the rehabber but he died from shock, it was too late..We all do go on but its something i'll never forget and the guilt that goes with it hearing him chirp all day as his sisters and brothers lay dead next him just kills me Bea in Bethel CT--Eastern bluebirds Subject: RE: Baby blues Bea, I had a very similar situation two years ago. The second nesting was happening around early July. On July 4th I noticed four baby BB's in the box not responding to my peaking in. That was unusual to me as they always did. I tried to stimulate them and they were very lethargick. It was 99 degrees in the sun where the box was. I became worried that they could not even lift their heads to eat and were becomming weak. I did intrude! I took the babies, two at a time, into my house and hand (force at first) fed them. After doing this three times on July 4th, they began acting better! Same thing again on the 5th, even hotter 103 degrees. They were doing so well at the end of that day I decided not to touch them on July, 6th. BIG MISTAKE!! Just as hot with early morning rain, and when I did check them that afternoon they were all dead! I swear I could feel the heat comming out of the box when I opened it. Yes, the parents did blame me for the mishap. Now the male won't l! et me near the new nest. I've moved the boxes so that they get a little more shade, seems to be working. Dave -----Original Message----- ... From: "Bobby Wilson" bluebirdbob1"at"bresnan.net In my opinion the reason all birds abandon nest is 1. they have been killed
2. there is not enough food in the area for them to raise young. Last week I
found a lot of unused nest and very few grasshoppers. I think that in my case
they just move to higher elevation where there maybe enough food for them to
survive. In Steamboat Springs about 180 miles northeast of here they are over
run with grasshopper and I will bet that they are not having a problem with
abandon nest. From: Lynn Ward lWard"at"pmai.org This is in response to all the discussion lately on abandoned nests and missing eggs. I have lost more eggs this year than any other. Like others, it never looked like a single blade of grass or anything else was ever moved inside the boxes. It all started with what I suspect were Great Crested Flycatcher eggs that just disappeared without a trace, followed by numerous TRES and EABL eggs, and even wren eggs most recently! I have a bluebird pair that abandoned 2 nests when their eggs came up missing and are on their third nest. The female is incubating and the eggs are still there so I'm going to keep my fingers crossed. I have another female who faithfully incubated 4 eggs. On hatching day I found one hatchling and 2 eggs. The next day I found 1 hatchling and no eggs. I asked myself, why would the parents remove three out of four eggs at that point? Somehow it didn't seem likely. She is now incubating four more in her second nesting...we'll see what happens this time. There aren't many snakes in my area and my boxes are very snake-proof. At first I blamed the missing eggs on wrens but then when wren eggs kept coming up missing, I knew there had to be something else contributing to the problem. If it's EUST, this will be the first time public enemy #1 has been something other than HOSP. And believe it or not, HOSP have hardly been a problem other than early spring. I used monofilament line for the first time this year with great success. And if EUST are the culprits, it's strange that I never see them. I usually see very few in the spring and none after that. Lynn Ward From: "John C. James" jjames14"at"nc.rr.com Hi everyone, I am back from my travels and require a bit more time to catch up on things before returning to the List. Thanks to those of you who wished me well, and whose Messages went unanswered because I had already departed. When I returned, my nestbox contained a new nest with 5 EABL eggs. My neighbor who had agreed to check out my nestbox in my absence tells me all five eggs were there from around June 6th. I saw papa bluebird only once on top of the box, but not Mama and now both are among the missing. Am I correct in assuming she is not coming back, and that the eggs are no longer viable. If so what shall I do with the nest and also with the eggs? Next a question about squirrels. A book "Nature Companion Backyard Birding at Page 53 states "Squirrels are cute and funny little creatures to watch, but where they occur (mostly in the East) even one can terrorize they entire bird population of the backyard." After defeating the squirrel family's constant raids on my birdseed. I installed feeders with baffles that ended their raids. My brother thought I was mean and should feed the squirrels so I put out a corn feeder, and peanuts for them, and a little plate of birdseed on my deck. My neighbor continued that for me while I was away. That got me regular visits from 2 chipmunks and occasional visits from squirrels. If the book is correct I may have made a stupid move. My first priority is bluebirds, and if that means I have to stop feeding squirrels I will do it. Can I feed chipmunks without simultaneous feeding squirrels? .May I request some advice from all on the correctness of the quote, and advice on the rest of the problems posed here? Thank you all for any helpful advice you can extend to me.. John James From: "Karen Louise Lippy" brdbrain"at"superpa.net I'm working on an article about rehabilitators for a newsletter and learned something interesting I thought I should pass along. I mentioned fostering birds into other nests with chicks of similar ages, putting only one into each nest if possible. This is in the event no liscensed rehabber is available. I was told, "DON'T DO IT!!!" West Nile Virus could be transferred into several nests of healthy birds! She said if no rehabber is available, perhaps it is better to let nature take its inevitable course than to cause further harm. If you know that your chicks were orphaned by a cat attack or other predator, that is different. But if the adults died from unknown causes, don't risk spreading West Nile. If you are fortunate, you have a rehabber near you and won't have to make that decision. Karen from South Central PA From: "Keith & Sandy Kridler" kridler"at"1starnet.com Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas Stop and think that even our nations blood banks have decided there is little need to test blood for this virus since nearly everyone in the US will be exposed to the disease in a few short years. If you desperately need blood and will die without a transfusion do you turn it down for fear of possibly being infected with a disease that missed detection or isn't even being tested for? IF you know bluebirds or tree swallows are orphans and will die for sure if you leave them how many on this list will "walk away"? Gee many cannot even allow their birds to hunt for their own food but provide a constant "Mealies on Wheels" type program:-)))...I believe foster parenting orphans to another nest is far better than taking them to a rehabber.. even if (especially if) you have West Nile virus in your area. Exotic Newcastle Disease like we have slowly spreading in the southwest in the poultry flocks is another matter. KK From: "Karen Louise Lippy" brdbrain"at"superpa.net Keith, The young were taken to a rehabber who kept them in quarentine while they were rehabbed. The chicks turned out to be healthy with no sign of whatever had killed the adults. As you mention Exotic Newcastle Disease, it is likely that we might spread
other diseases through the introduction of orphaned chicks into a nest of
healthy birds. I will no longer use this method when I discover orphans and
don't know the cause of death of the adults (which isn't that often). Pesented with the possibility of infecting healthy nests and perhaps causing the deaths of 20 or so other healthy birds, I don't plan to be the "Typhoid Mary" of the bird world. Of course, again I mention that if you know the reason for the death of the
adult, I think that is a whole different situation. Karen from South Central PA ... From: hubertrap"at"webtv.net (Joe Huber) Hi all, There was some talk today about not placing orphaned baby Blues in
other nests because of spreading West nile virus. The article or web page below
makes it clear that it is spread only by mosquito bites. Thus it is safe to
place baby birds in other nests with young of similar age. Joe Huber ... http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/westnile/index.htm From: "MJShearer" eshearer"at"attbi.com Hi Joe and all, Just a little more info on WNV... Although most human WNV is spread by mosquitoes, there have been cases that are not mosquito related. For example, caged birds in a laboratory contracted WNV with no mosquitoes present; and laboratory workers acquired the virus from handling infected tissues and fluids. It can also be transmitted in organ transplants if the donor carried the virus, from mother to fetus, etc... See link below.... MJ (Mary Jane Shearer; Tucker, GA) http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5150a2.htm West Nile virus (WNV), a mosquito-borne flavivirus introduced recently to
North America, is a human, equine, and avian neuropathogen (1). The majority of
human infections with WNV are mosquito-borne; however, laboratory-acquired
infections with WNV and other arboviruses also occur (2--4). This report
summarizes two recent cases of WNV infection in laboratory workers without other
known risk factors who acquired infection through percutaneous inoculation.
Laboratory workers handling fluids or tissues known or suspected to be
WNV-infected should minimize their risk for exposure and should report injuries
and illnesses of suspected occupational origin to their supervisor. ... snipped ----- Original Message ----- ... From: "Stan Blaylock" stanb103"at"bellsouth.net I have EABB's sitting on 4 eggs for 23 days, no chicks, are the eggs still viable? Stan Blaylock From: "david calhoun" dlcdmd"at"bellsouth.net Stan, my undetrstanding is that sometimes the female will not actually begin brooding the eggs right after she has laid them. If you see her apparently still paying attention to the nest I would suggest not disturbing the eggs yet. Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:57:43 -0700 Linda Violett - Yorba Linda, Calif. When you checked the eggs 23 days ago, were the eggs warm and being incubated . . . or was there a delay of several days (cold eggs) before incubation started? Unless you check your boxes more than once per week to see if old eggs were
removed, you do not know if the 4 eggs she is sitting on now are, in fact, the
same 4 eggs you saw in the nest 23 days ago. Stan Blaylock wrote: ... From: "emcooper" emcooper"at"bayou.com There was a lady (on this list) that let some stay for 4 or 5 weeks last summer and they finally hatched! Evelyn Cooper Delhi, La. Louisiana Bayou Bluebird Society ----- Original Message ----- ... From: "emcooper" emcooper"at"bayou.com Last year, I had two clutches that the females waiting a week before beginning incubation. Evelyn Cooper ----- Original Message ----- ... Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:28:35 -0700 Linda Violett - Yorba Linda, Calif. Stan wrote that he is certain the same four eggs have been in the box for 23 days but not sure of the start of incubation. Therefore, please let us know if those 4 eggs eventually hatch and the date. If, however, the eggs do not hatch, please let us know whether your female rebuilds over the old eggs or whether she removes the eggs. My WEBL have *no* problem removing eggs. In fact, during this morning's check
at a HOSP problem test site, WEBL flew out of a nestbox during my approach. Last
week, I had removed a HOSP nest and put the five HOSP eggs on the bare floor of
the box. Today, all but one of last's week's old HOSP eggs had been
removed--assumed being cleaned out by the Bluebird pair now in command of the
box. Golf Course Log notes at FW#3:
http://home.earthlink.net/~lviolett/conversion.html Stan Blaylock wrote: ... From: "judymellin" judymellin"at"netzero.net Here is information from 2002 that I hope may shed some light on your question. It may also be helpful to the person who wrote about seeing only one adult: On April 13, I had a completed nest. The same was true on April 16. By April 19, there were three cold eggs so I think we can assume laying began on the 17th and eggs were deposited on the 18th and 19th since I got out there around noon on the 19th. (That's also my very favorite holiday- the REAL Patriot's Day!) The situation was the same on April 21. On April 27, there were four eggs (cold) and, on May 4, five eggs. On The 4th, I saw a male enter the box and, if you can believe it, this was my FIRST sighting of an adult this season! I assumed the male was feeding the female but nooooo female to be seen. I will say that I was getting close to removing the nest on the 11th of May when I still had not seen a female. But, hard as it is to believe, on May 15, there were five babies that were no more than two days old! I still had not seen a female all season and, after the only nice day we had had in May (in the 70s and sunny), the rains started again and the temps went back into the 40s so I fully expected to find little dead bodies on my next trip. But, on May 19, I finally saw a female foraging from a fence post and there were five little bodies still warm and breathing, although they were not showing as much development as I would have expected. And you evidently saw my note from the weekend when both Mom and Pop were doing yeoman duty, filling up those little gullets! So I say, "Go with the flow" and "Abandon no nest before its time". I'm sure there are more platitudes I could come up with but that should hold you for now! Judy Mellin ----- Original Message ----- ... From: hubertrap"at"webtv.net (Joe Huber) Hi Stan, This is much to long for incubation. Be very sure incubation has been going on for that many days. Eggs could be viable for that long if actual incubation had not started the day you mentioned. No one will suggest removing eggs unless absolutely sure they are way over due. This can happen early in the season when weather fluctuates and cold weather occurs late in spring. They can make up for it in may when weather moderates. Best Wishes, Joe Huber, Venice fl. Charter member NABS, Charter member OBS, Life member OBS Joe Huber hubertrap"at"webtv.net http://community.webtv.net/hubertrap/HOUSESPARROWCONTROL
http://community.webtv.net/hubertrap/RoostingBluebirds 27.1171494 N Lo -82.4124222 W ... From: "Snoopy" snoopy"at"wmis.net My BB have a full nest built and have for a few weeks now, but no eggs ( by
this time last year I had babys already. they are both there I see them on a
daily basis now so I can't figure out why there is no eggs yet. Do ya'll think
it's the weather or could something else be holding them up??? Joy in Michigan P From: "emcooper" emcooper"at"bayou.com Just be patient. Mine had some built for 3 weeks before laying. Evelyn ... From: "Nancy C. Hebb" Fencroft"at"msn.com Hi, list. "My" bluebirds (the ones in the yard box) are seen nearby but the female is not yet spending lots of time on the eggs (clutch of six eggs!). How long is too long between time the last egg is laid and she "gets to work" setting? Lots of cool, rainy weather lately. "My" tree swallows put on a neat show this evening, seemingly two pairs (nesting in boxes about 100 yards apart along a pasture fence) acting together to chase off any other birds passing through. They were gleaning lots and lots of insects stirred up as the sheep grazed, too. Barn swallows appeared a few days ago, but I haven't seen them in the barn! (Horrors! The old farmer's belief is that if barn swallows abandon your barn, it will burn!) Northern flickers in a small apple tree apparently doing a courtship ritual offered another neat sight today, and all within five minutes on the front porch I enjoyed: orioles, nuthatches, titmice, chickadees, hairy and downy woodpeckers, red-bellied woodpecker, rose-breasted grosbeaks, white-crowned sparrows, red-winged blackbirds, gold-, purple- and house finches, chipping sparrows, cardinal, jay, my yard bluebirds, doves, and a bobwhite! Busy birds. The red-headed woodpecker was at the feeders yesterday and this morning. This evening I took a walk in the woods/wetland to take pictures of the acres of trillium and other wildflowers and found a red-headed woodpecker drumming about 50 feet off the ground on a snag that looked like it had a fresh cavity in it just below where he was. He let me know I did NOT belong there, and he didn't like the intrusion. Could that be where they're nesting? If so, it's in a slightly more open area than last year. The farm that surrounds mine is in danger of becoming a gravel pit, and those woods of mine would suffer for sure. If only a pil. woodpecker would show up, or the Indian bat, or something! I'm fearful for the effect on my little farmette when the surrounding property, which has been meticulously maintained to benefit wildlife and native species, goes. Sorry for ranting. Hope that clutch of 6 eggs isn't in danger? Nancy in Michigan (Clinton/Manchester area, s. Wastenaw County) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:31:10 -0700 (PDT) I have a box with a nest which has been complete and empty for weeks. How long does everyone leave such a nest before cleaning out the box? Tony Berg, Williamsburg, VA Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:18:15 -0400 Haleya Priest Amherst MA If it hasn't been 4 weeks and there seems to be absolutely no changes to the
nest, I wouldn't touch it. I'd wait for 5 weeks. Why they wait so long can be
due to bad weather, inexperience, or lots of experience that we don't know
about! But if they haven't abandoned, you can bet they come and check the nest
on occasion. So, you can prop a fine piece of grass in the hole and if they
haven't abandoned the nest you'll know because they'll push the grass out of the
hole to get in. The online Bluebird Reference Guide:
http://birds.cornell.edu/bluebirds/ ---------- ... From: hubertrap"at"webtv.net (Joe Huber) Tony, If this nest was built this year there doesn't seem to be a reason to clean it out. The bird that built it may return to use it even if there is another nesting site being used right now. As long as the nest is neat and orderly why bother. I really don't think it would matter either way. I would wait a little longer. Joe Huber, Venice, fl. Charter member NABS, Charter member OBS, Life member OBS Joe Huber http://community.webtv.net/hubertrap/HOUSESPARROWCONTROL
http://community.webtv.net/hubertrap/RoostingBluebirds 27.1171494 N Lo -82.4124222 W ... From: rindfleisch12"at"elknet.net Question if I have a blue bird nest that has been abandoned: 1. Should I remove it? If so, after how long 1, 2 3 weeks of no activity? 2. Or if left in the box, will other birds use it? Any comments? Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 17:32:46 -0400 HI Cheryl, A few days ago I posted some of the signs of a possible abandoned nest - but still, one can't be too sure unless you see other birds using and laying eggs in the nest. So here are some cues: 1) the nest starts getting messy - and stays messy day after day You can put a really thin piece of grass in the entrance hole - and that way if it is abandoned - then the grass will be there undisturbed for quite some time. I know I personally have pulled eggs thinking they abandoned - to find out they hadn't! So I can't imagine how many nests are pulled with folks thinking the same thing! Early in the spring - bbs can take a LONG time to lay - especially if the weather is unsettled. I'd like to hear why you think the nests are abandoned. Unless you have a clear sign of other birds starting to use the nest I'd give it 5 weeks. I have one box on my trail with Cornell loggers in it that I believed right from the start was abandoned. But I waited for 3 weeks to see what happened. I suspected they had jumped ship right away - but I know I didn't want to make a mistake! Finally I saw Tree Swallows in the box - they put feathers in, etc. If it hadn't been abandoned -the bbs would have stopped the tree swallows from taking over. :-) H -------------------------------------------- The online Bluebird Reference Guide:
http://birds.cornell.edu/bluebirds/ ---------- ... From: "emcooper" emcooper"at"bayou.com I left one 5 weeks and a pair came and re-worked it and laid 4 eggs. Now, I have 4 beautiful babies. Evelyn Cooper ----- Original Message ----- ... From: USMCWIFE64"at"aol.com Help. How much longer do I leave the eggs and at that point should I clean the box and hope for an another nesting? We are occasionally seeing juvenile BB's coming around our yard so am guessing that this would be a second nesting already. Any advice/comments would be greatly appreciated. PS...good news on another beautiful bird.......saw the most wonderful Pileated Woodpecker yesterday. First one I've seen since being stationed back in NC this time. Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:12:55 -0700 Linda Violett - Yorba Linda, Calif. If the female Bluebird is staying for extended lengths of time in the box with eggs, she is trying to hatch the eggs——are the eggs warm? If the eggs eventually prove infertile, she can remove the eggs herself or,
as you stated was done last year, a new nest can be built on top of the old and
you can then remove the old (bottom) nest. In the meantime, trust her judgment,
not ours. USMCWIFE64"at"aol.com wrote: ... From: "Dave Kandler" dave"at"CompanyNewsletters.com Help! We had our first pair of bluebirds this spring nesting in our back yard bluebird house. Today, now that the babies have feathers and are only 4 days from flying, the parents have not returned to the nest. For the first time we took the nest box down, took out the babies, and one was dead and three were still alive and moving, holding their beaks open for food. There were a number of bugs in the nest and lots of large white globs about the size of a jelly bean, all of which we tried to get rid of. Is this the bird's fecal sacs or some kind of maggot (there were flies buzzing around the next till we removed the dead baby)? Anyway, the parents haven't come back to the nest all day, and we've been watching the nest now at dusk for over an hour, and no sign of the parent bluebirds. Is there anyone in the Twin Cities area in Minnesota who knows how to rescue and raise the babies? Is there anything we can feed them or do to ensure their survival? We're new at this, so any tips would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!! Regards, Dave Kandler Lakeville, MN From: Afinechef"at"aol.com Hi Dave, You need to get your bluebirds to a rehabber ASAP! They will die soon without food. Please use the link or URL below to locate one near you that you can either take the babies to or call for advice. Please call now! Good luck! Keep the Listserv informed as to what happened! A HREF" http://www.tc.umn.edu/~devo0028/contact.htm "Click here: How To Locate a Wildlife Rehabilitator/A or: A HREF" http://www.tc.umn.edu/~devo0028/contact.htm "http://www.tc.umn.edu/~devo0028/contact.htm/A Donna in Marlborough, CT From: "Dave Kandler" dave"at"CompanyNewsletters.com Hey Everyone, Just giving everyone an update on the Message I posted last night after we discovered that our baby bluebirds likely had been abandoned. We found a rehabber (thanks to someone on the bluebird list who immediately emailed us a list of them) who rushed right over late last night to get the babies, so they're in good hands now. The rehabber has lots of experience with song birds -- and birds of all kind -- and seemed confident he could raise and release the babies after they can eat on their own. Thanks, everyone, for the great tips! As I was posting the first Message asking for help, my wife was able to feed the babies cut-up fresh-picked rasberries, which they happily accepted. So I hope the outlook is good for these babies, thanks to the help from everyone who responded to us and a very nice rehabber who took a long drive to our house on short notice, at 10 p.m., to pick up the birds. Now that we've had time to reflect on when we last saw the parents, we noticed that 2-3 days ago, we only saw the male coming to feed the babies. However, we weren't watching the nest box constantly, so we didn't get worried or anything. I've read that if something happens to the female bluebird, that the male may eventually abandon the nest ... is this right? Also, the rehabber said that sometimes young mothers of many songbird species get confused and abandon their nest if one of their babies dies? Has anyone experienced this with bluebirds? When I opened the nest box last night, there was a dead baby at the bottom, and it was dried out and looked like it was dead for at least a few days. Could this have caused the mother to leave, which eventually caused the father to leave? Lastly, with three live babies, there were about 4 fecal sacs in the nest, which I removed along with the dead baby. Does this give any indication as to when the mother and father abandoned the nest, since the parents usually remove the sacs? I'm just wondering how long they were without food, and if, for instance, we can tell how long they were neglected by how many fecal sacs were allowed to build up. Anyway, I'm just curious as to what happened and what may have led to the babies being abandoned. Thanks again for everyone's help!! Regards, Dave From: owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu [mailto:owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu] On
Behalf Of Nahanna2"at"aol.com
Hello All: From: Pamela Ford [mailto:jpford"at"comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 8:00 AM To: Nahanna2"at"aol.com; bluebird-l"at"cornell.edu Subject: RE: Cold eggs? Hi Nancy,
The fact that the eggs are cold does not mean that they are abandoned. They could be in the laying-or-not-yet-incubating stage. The female usually starts incubating a day or two before the last egg is laid, or a day or two after the last egg is laid. But, sometimes the start of incubation is delayed – perhaps due to weather or competitor pressure.
The bluebirds usually adapt to traffic in the area of their nest. Last year, a bluebird pair made a nest in a neighbor's brick mailbox newspaper hole – just over 2 feet off the ground right at the curb and driveway. When they made the nest, the weather was still cold and not many people were out, but when the babies hatched, the people appeared also. Kids on big wheels, people walking the neighborhood, kids on bikes, all the normal neighborhood things. The bluebirds were able to fledge these babies and most people didn't even know they were there. The bluebirds would sit on a nearby street sign and wait for the perfect instant to dash into the hole to feed the nestlings.
If I were in your situation, I would leave things alone and just wait. You may still have a successful nesting.
Pam in Harford County , Maryland From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot"at"mtco.com] From: Nahanna2"at"aol.com [mailto:Nahanna2"at"aol.com] From: Nahanna2"at"aol.com [mailto:Nahanna2"at"aol.com] From: Nancy C. Hebb Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 10:08 PM Subject: cold eggs Found two "cold" eggs in a relatively new nest today. Have these been abandoned or could the female just not yet be incubating them? Plenty of empty boxes in the general vicinity: What might cause abandonment (I see pair near the box) after egg laying? The Tree Swallows just arrived a couple days ago, but are staking out boxes some distance away from this one... NH, Washtenaw County, MI From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot"at"mtco.com] From: Nancy C. Hebb [mailto:Fencroft"at"msn.com] From: JCGARRIOTT"at"satx.rr.com My bluebird pair no. 2 completed their nesting and had 5 eggs laid on April 24, which I noted seemed to be already in incubation when I checked on April 25 (warm to light touch). Everything was OK on Tuesday May 4, still warm. Yesterday on a check (13 days after start) the pair were not seen as I approached the box, usually they are. The 5 eggs are still there, but now cold, and a nest of fine animal fur had been placed on top of them. I thought this was a titmouse habit (there are many in the area and they also nest in the bluebird boxes). However, is it likely that the titmouse would drive the bluebirds away from their eggs so near hatching? I removed the fur material and left the nest as is for now. Thanks for any thoughts or advice. Jim Garriott San Antonio, TX From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot"at"mtco.com]
Hi Jim, Chickadees will sometimes use animal fur - at the present time, I have a nestbox with 6 nestlings snuggling into the soft hair from a sheltie. But I doubt if chickadees or the titmouses chased away bluebirds. Have you ever seen HOSP in this area? On more than 1 occassion, I have witnessed them chasing away bluebirds, but not using the nestbox. It's also very possible that the female died for some reason. The male bluebird is not able to incubate the eggs. Whatever happened, it sounds like another bird was taking advantage of the situation. If you could spend a bit of time observing the nestbox, you might see whether it was chickadees or titmouses. Dottie Roseboom Peoria IL (central - zone 5) From: The Cummins' Casa [mailto:montex"at"frontiernet.net] This is from the West Virginia Eastern Panhandle (Harpers Ferry). Around April 15 a Tufted titmouse began nesting in a clean Bluebird box. After initial activity, not much happened. Around May 1 an Eastern Bluebird male and female began investigating the box. This box has been used by Eastern Bluebird pairs for three consecutive years. There was again a week long period of inactivity. In checking the box, discovered a Bluebird-appearing nest, but no one home and no eggs. Today the male Bluebird is flying to the box, Sitting on top for about 5 minutes, then going inside to emerge less than a minute later with nesting material in his mouth and flying away with it. It looks like nest de-construction. The male has also defended the site from another bluebird and titmice. Should we clean the nesting material out now and let them start anew or just continue to observe? Gary From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net]
If you read all of the post from Sharon you will notice that at the end she describes the current pair of bluebirds acting differently by eating from the feeder and being more possessive of the nestbox. Breeding pairs of Bluebirds do NOT get along very well with other pairs and if there is competition for a nest site or feeder then very often a dominant pair can and will drive off the resident pair and take over the nest site. In this case I would say that while Sharon was gone on vacation a fight occurred between bluebirds and a new pair or female won control of the nestbox, feeder and yard. After the new eggs are laid she might want to compare the size, shape and color of the old clutch of eggs with the new eggs. If it is the same female laying the second clutch of eggs as the first ones then they should be almost identical. If something frightens a pair of bluebirds away from the nestbox during the early incubation of the eggs then very often the same female will wait 7>10 days and resume laying a new clutch of eggs in a new nest over the old eggs. It normally takes a major change in the area around the nestbox or a predator that camps out in the yard for a day or two. Harry Krueger had a female abandon her eggs when a farmer parked his tractor within about 20 feet of an active nestbox for two days. Severe weather can trigger abandonment of the eggs and then the same female beginning a new nest in a couple of weeks. Snakes and cats climbing up to the box has triggered females to abandon their eggs and begin again later. The longer the female had incubated the eggs the less likely she was in abandoning them. Harry Krueger found that most bluebirds on his trail stayed very near their nestbox guarding it if they intended to nest another time. If there was a nest failure and nestboxes nearby were empty then they might move down the road a little ways. He had nestboxes in three different counties for his trail and he did on occasion see them move miles away for a second nesting even when they were successful. The pairs that were VERY aggressive or VERY upset every time he checked the nestbox or trapped the adults were more likely to leave the area after they fledged their young. Harry found that just over 20% of his bluebird pairs were successful in fledging at least one young bird from four different broods in a single breeding season. Many more would attempt four nestings in a single year only to lose one or more clutches. We are just a little north of a line between Dallas TX. and Shreveport LA at an elevation of about 380 feet and bluebirds begin laying eggs normally in Feb. occasionally reports as early as late Jan. and there are normally a few young bluebirds still in nestboxes as late as Sept. When I began checking boxes back in the 1960's it was normally late March when we found the first egg. One year April 1 was the first egg laid out of hundreds of nestboxes. KK From: SCooke [mailto:ncw001"at"nc.rr.com] This is fascinating information! During the week that we were away, there were a couple of days with severe thunderstorms in our area. I don't think the abandonment is predator related b/c, fortunately, all of my neighbors keep their cats and dogs indoors most of the time and the box itself is mounted on a metal pole with a baffle underneath it. The behavior of this pair of EABL's is much different than the first pair. They continue to be very protective of their territory. In case you didn't see my post from earlier today, today the first egg was laid in the new nest. It actually appears larger and bluer than the ones in the first clutch. I guess we'll just see what happens next---hopefully more eggs and then----babies! Sharon in NC From: judymellin [mailto:judymellin"at"netzero.net] Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 7:45 PM Re:EABL nesting question John Eastman addresses this question in his book, Birds of Field and Shore. He says the following: "Divorce" among bluebirds can occur after an unsuccessful first nesting, usually the result of nest predation or harsh weather. The birds rapidly abandon sites of nest failure, even though such sites may be otherwise optimal. In such cases, the pair sometimes stays together and renests elsewhere; however, the pair may split and travel some miles away, the male to establish a new territory, the female to find another mate. Thus, nest site fidelity (philopatry), so common in most species, seems to depend in bluebirds mainly to the degree of nesting success at that site. Judy Mellin NE IL. From: SCooke [mailto:ncw001"at"nc.rr.com] From: Deb Cohen [mailto:bdcohen"at"webriver.net] I have had no greater joy these past several weeks then watching my nesting box aflutter with bluebird activity for the first time in ten years. Yesterday, to my great horror and sadness, I realized I had seen no activity for at least 24 hours. I checked the nest and found four blue eggs but the mother is nowhere to be seen. I fear she has succumbed to some predator (though I have a proper predator guard). Should I attempt to incubate the eggs? Is it too late if the mother has been gone for more than 24 hours? Thank you for your help. Deb Cohen From: SCooke [mailto:ncw001"at"nc.rr.com] Good morning everyone, I'm still new at this so correct me if I'm wrong. I understand that several days may elapse between the laying of the last egg and incubation. Deb, I wouldn't give up hope yet---it sounds like there is time for a family of blues to grace your yard. Sharon in NC From: rindfleisch12"at"elknet.net [mailto:rindfleisch12"at"elknet.net] Be patient. I have a pair that laid their last eggs on 6/28 and are still not sitting on the nest except when the temps. begin to fall. The weather's been cold and I think Mom's trying to put on a few extra pounds for the long journey ahead and hope for sunnier days. Hopefully your birds will be ready soon to finish the job they've started. I try to listen for their songs. Then I usually will follow my ears and find the pair... or in this case 2 families and the "soon to be incubating" pair. Cheryl R. SE Wisconsin From: Deb Cohen [mailto:bdcohen"at"webriver.net] Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 2:02 PM Subject: Follow up: Mother gone - I'm brokenhearted Sadly I report that when I checked the nest today, I found three of four eggs broken and crawling with a few flies. I removed the nest and found three or four large black beetles (inch to inch and a half long) with small orange markings crawling through it. I removed the broken eggs and tried to clean the intact egg. I then removed the infested nesting material, cleaned the box and made a nest with clean, dry grass tightly packed in the box for the remaining intact egg. Have I done anything useful at all or should I just remove all the nesting material and remaining egg in the hopes that there will be one last nesting opportunity? Am so grateful for all your help. Deb From: charlene anchor [mailto:charleneanchor"at"msn.com] Bluebirds completed a nest in one of my boxes. I had just experienced snake predation and was in the process of changing to the stovepipe guard on some of the boxes. Feeling anxious for the bluebirds I put one on the post with the completed bluebird nest to protect it. That was last week. This week when I checked, nothing further has taken place. Could the bluebirds have abandoned it and could it possibly be as a result of putting on the new guard? It is bigger than the old guard and changes the appearance of the nest box. I'm really disappointed as this was going to be only my second bluebird nest in a trail of 23 boxes and I was hoping it would be successful. I just wondered if anyone has experienced abandonment of the nests when changing to a different guard at this point in their nesting? Thanks. Charlene Anchor, Central Illinois From: Maynard R Sumner [mailto:m-r-sumner"at"juno.com] Most of the time they will not abandoned the box. Not all birds are the same, so maybe this bird is one that will abandoned. If you keep the bigger guard on I think come next year they will get used to it and will use the box. Maynard Sumner Flint, MI From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] Now, this is just my experience. We have installed guards many times after nests were built and never had one abandoned. I certainly don't think the size of the guard could have caused it. The closest scare of abandonment I had was I changed the direction of the nestbox from East to Southeast because of a closer tree. Mama did not show up that day, but was back the next day. It may be though, that yours abandoned it. They are not all the same. Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA From: Ron Kingston [mailto:kingston"at"cstone.net] Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 10:33 AM Subject: Re: Snake guards and bluebirds Charlene, That should have no effect on the nesting birds Ron Ron Kingston Charlottesville VA North American Bluebird Society http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/nabs/rk1.htm is URL for the Kingston Predator Guard From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot"at"mtco.com] Charlene, In my experience, bluebirds are quite accommodating to changes, so I agree with Ron that it wasn't the new guard. Since you are in central Illinois, you might check for sparrow harassment - they have cause abandoned of many trails in our area. Many times, they do NOT build a nest in the nestbox - they just want the bluebirds out of their territory. If the trail is close to hay / oat / alafha fields, sparrows congregate in these areas and strongly protect them. They will leave as soon as the field is harvested. Also, last week, we had rain and cool weather. Sometimes this "puts off" a pair for a few days. They may come back as the weather returns to normal. Hang in there! If the nestboxes are in a good location, and there are no sparrows, the blues will come. Dottie Roseboom Peoria IL From: Paula [mailto:PaulaZ"at"columbus.rr.com] Charlene, I have to echo another lister's concern that the abandoned nest may be due to HOWR. You stated you had a lot of the little guys on your trail. They will not necessarily build a nest in a box that they clear out. I am guessing you monitor your trail about once a week, and in that time, the EABL could easily have laid one or more eggs. The HOWR could have tossed the eggs and the EABL abandoned the nest. This is very possible and would not surprise me given the HOWR activity you mention. You say that they (HOWR) are nesting far from trees or brushy areas and I am curious about exactly how far away (i.e. have you measured?). I have HOWR problems where I would expect to have them and no HOWR trying to nest outside of their habitat. If I pace off 40 yards, and that is 120 feet (quite a distance) from any brushy area or stand of trees, I have no HOWR activity whatsoever. Within that 40 yards, however, HOWR can and do build nests in any box they can find. On my street, every box is in HOWR habitat. We are not heavily wooded and have a lot of open areas, but also have trees in the landscape and no box could be said to be clear of HOWR habitat. After fledging 6 of the little guys this spring, I pulled that box. I will add too that the addition of a baffle to a box has never dissuaded any birds in my experience. Paula Z Powell (Central) Ohio From: charlene anchor [mailto:charleneanchor"at"msn.com] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 1:24 AM Subject: Re: Snake guards and bluebirds Paula and BLUEBIRD, You're right - I monitor weekly. I didn't realize that the wrens and house sparrows would cause trouble without some telltale signs of their presence. The boxes involved are over 150' away from trees. Also, I have wren nests in boxes that are over 200' from trees and others in boxes that aren't around any trees! I certainly didn't expect that many wrens on this trail. They must need places to nest badly! I guess the only way the bluebirds are going to be successful is if they get an early start next year. They came so late this year that I thought I wasn't going to have any. Some of you suggested that the female may be taking a rest. I hope that is the case. Even if it is, with all the wrens around it is rather nerve wracking. Thanks to everyone who offered their ideas. Charlene Anchor, Illinois From: charlene anchor [mailto:charleneanchor"at"msn.com] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 1:24 AM Subject: Re: Snake guards and bluebirds Paula and BLUEBIRD, You're right - I monitor weekly. I didn't realize that the wrens and house sparrows would cause trouble without some telltale signs of their presence. The boxes involved are over 150' away from trees. Also, I have wren nests in boxes that are over 200' from trees and others in boxes that aren't around any trees! I certainly didn't expect that many wrens on this trail. They must need places to nest badly! I guess the only way the bluebirds are going to be successful is if they get an early start next year. They came so late this year that I thought I wasn't going to have any. Some of you suggested that the female may be taking a rest. I hope that is the case. Even if it is, with all the wrens around it is rather nerve wracking. Thanks to everyone who offered their ideas. Charlene Anchor, Illinois From: SCooke [mailto:ncw001"at"nc.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 9:26 AM Subject: Should I help the mother EABL or not It is Day #3 and my single mom is working hard to feed her chicks. When I looked in the box this morning, one of the 3 babies was very lethargic while the other two seemed appropriately reactive. (you can see them in the attached photo) Since she is doing this without help from a daddy blue, should I try to get the "weaker" baby to eat a mealworm or should I just let nature take its course? Secondly, how long can it take for the last egg to hatch? I appreciate all of the help. Sharon in Sweltering NC From: Cher [mailto:bluebirdnut"at"a-znet.com] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 9:46 AM Subject: Re: Should I help the mother EABL or not Sharon, Your "lethargic" baby may just be stuffed to the gills with mealworms, or "playing dead" for you. It's not unusual for one or two of the babies to seem less active than the others. I wouldn't try interfering beyond offering the single parent mom plenty of mealies. She has to find other food, too, since mealworms do not make a complete diet for the little ones, but it can't hurt to give her as many as she'll take. It will save her a bit of energy. I usually wait until the third morning after the last egg hatches to decide that an unhatched egg is a "dud". Meaning, if these eggs hatched on Tuesday, wait til at least tomorrow morning to take the egg out. You don't HAVE to take it out that soon, though -- you can wait a little longer. Cher From: The Doctor [mailto:sytyf"at"yahoo.com] From: Elizabeth Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net] Had a thought - if bluebird nestlings have hatched, wouldn't you be able to tell if a nest were abandoned if there were fecal sacs present, since bluebirds remove them up until fledging? (Unlike tree swallows, which stop removing them after the young are 14 days old, resulting in a tarry mess.) Bet from CT From: Haleya Priest [mailto:mablue"at"gis.net] Haleya Priest Amherst MA Mmmm... Good thinking Bet, but from my experience that isn’t always a teller because the babies haven’t eaten ANYWAY – so not lots of poop, but sometimes the EABLs don’t clean out the nest so well anyway. One of the ways I tell if they’ve been abandoned is that when I open the box they act STARVED or if they are obviously lethargic. Then I watch the box to see if I see parents – or come back in an hour or so – depending of course on the health of the chicks. Will be interesting to see what others say. :-) H From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot"at"mtco.com] My experience tends to agree with you, Haleya. Occasionally, I will notice fecal sacs in a nestbox with very well-fed & contented babies. The next day, the sacs will be gone. Perhaps I had just dropped in before Mom had time to clean :-) And sometimes fecal sacs are not removed when it's close to fledging time. I always note if just 1 or 2 babies are gaping, or if all babies have their mouths open. Also note to what extent, they are stretching & reaching for possible food. I had a nestbox of chickadees this spring that seemed always seemed very hungry. I saw the parents feeding - so I knew that the nest wasn't abandoned. Kept thinking that they must be new parents, since they weren't keeping their 6 offspring full. A few days later, I counted 6 open mouths and 1 closed mouth. Maybe that 7th hidden chick had been a pig, stealing his siblings share. Before they fledged, I finally saw all 8 chicks! No wonder they were hungry so much of the time. Of course, if time permits, observation of the parents actually feeding the young is best. This can take lots of patience, especially if the nestlings are close to fledging, because the parents' trips to the nestbox are further apart. Have read where monitors place a piece of grass in the entrance hole, to see if parents are returning. This wouldn't work if the nestlings are large enough to peek out. Dottie Roseboom Peoria IL (central - zone 5) From: Bet Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz "at"charter.net] A pair of bluebirds built a perfectly good nest, and completed it about 10 days ago. No eggs yet, but I figured they realized we are still periodically having freezing temps at night here in northeastern CT. However, today they started building a nest in a different box (one that they had originally been scoping out, nearer the mealworm feeder) in the same area. I’ve had this happen before but am puzzled by it. There are no house sparrows (all trapped and removed), wasps ..., or anything except a bunch of tree swallows that are buzzing ALL the boxes. Both boxes are Peterson’s. I assume something could have happened that I didn’t witness. I just wonder why they would leave a perfectly good nest and move elsewhere – is it just can’t make up their minds? In any case, if they really DID give up the first nest, I’ll save it for a nest change later. Bet from CT From: Ann&Tom Long [mailto:longann "at"pacinfo.com] Sent: Friday, March 02, 2040 12:25 PM Subject: Re: Confused about why bluebirds are starting another nest in a different box. Could be a different pair of bluebirds or a different female. I've had that happen many times. Tom Long From: Bet Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz "at"charter.net] Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 12:47 PM Subject: RE: Confused about why bluebirds are starting another nest in a different box. Hmmm, I assumed it's the same pair because they are the only ones trained to Bet From: Dottie, Hickory Hollow, Brown County, Indiana [mailto:yumyumkatts "at"voyager.net] Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 3:25 PM Subject: Re: Confused about why bluebirds are starting another nest in a different box. I've read that Bluebirds can build dummy nests. I don't know why. Dottie, Hickory Hollow From: Nature1951 "at"aol.com [mailto:Nature1951 "at"aol.com] Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 10:56 PM Subject: Re: Confused about why bluebirds are starting another nest in a different box. Bet, |